Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:38 am

DN11;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
To the definition of Nibbana from the Nibbana Sutta Ud 8.1;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
i will just leave this here too

justindesilva
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by justindesilva » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:01 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am
robertk wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:06 am
the Theravada understanding is that nibbana is an object of insight, not that nibbana has any type of consciousness.
When you say that Nibbana is an "object of insight", do you mean it's an object of consciousness ( vinnana )? Something we become aware of?
I already had shown my views before and arguments flowed over which. Therefore I wish to say that DO mentions a vingnana with klesha. But once one attains the stage of an arya puggala (arhant) , he still functions with a vingnana without Klesha , a pure and clean , purified vingnana. When the arhant physically dies , as there is no becoming, the vingnana disappears or vanishes. It is my belief that vinnanam anidassanam is this vingnanna ( aklesha or purified without defilements) , an intermediate stage before the status of nirvana.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam

Post by robertk » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:32 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:33 am
robertk wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:06 am
the Theravada understanding is that nibbana is an object of insight, not that nibbana has any type of consciousness.
When you say that Nibbana is an "object of insight", do you mean it's an object of consciousness ( vinnana )? Something we become aware of?
yes it is an object of citta/vinnana, and co-arising with the consciousness is panna (wisdom, insight).

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by aflatun » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:32 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:24 am
From an old post by ven. Dhammanando:

In the Mahāvihāra's understanding viññāṇaṃ does not mean consciousness in this context. Instead, it is defined as viññātabbaṃ, a verbal derivative that can be taken as a noun ('that which must be cognized') or an adjective ('to be cognized', 'must be cognized'). If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".

Either way, there seems to be no reason to doubt that the four terms in this passage are being used exactly as they are used elsewhere in the Suttas, i.e., as designations for nibbāna. The unlikelihood of the viññāṇaṃ in viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ referring to consciousness is evident from the last two lines of the same verse:

ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati
viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī ti

Here (in nibbana), name and matter cease without remainder;
Through the cessation of consciousness, these [name and matter] cease here.

One is of course at liberty to discard the Mahāvihārins' interpretation and substitute one's own pet theory, as numerous other modern scholars have done with this much remarked phrase. However, given the extreme rarity of the phrase, and the fact that it occurs only in verse (where it's normal for there to be more flexibility, liberality and ambiguity in the use of language), it would be rash to claim that it offers strong evidence that early Buddhism held nibbāna to be some kind of consciousness. One would need to consider first whether such a view would accord with the Buddha's general teaching on consciousness as attested in many hundreds of prose Suttas.


Best wishes,
Dhammānando Bhikkhu
Thank you for this, Robert(and ven. Dhammanando) :heart:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:08 pm

"vinnana + without end" also narrows it down because;

Vinnana is a Sankhara but ("sankhara-vinnana" + "without and end") = impossible
Therefore ("Vinnana" + "without end") appears to mean that we are talking about about a ("Dhamma-Vinnana"+"without an end end") that would be possible. A reality that is not inconstant, not-impermanent.

Anicca implies Dukkha to the extent that inconstancy is unsatisfying and unreliable.

All formations are Inconstant
All formations are Unsatisfying
All formations are Not-Self
All formations are Dhamma
Not all Dhamma are formations

From this we can know that:

("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = impossible not possible
("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta) = possible not impossible

Therefore;
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Sankhara" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + Anatta") = impossible not possible
("Vinnana+without end") + ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible not impossible

"Third Noble Truth" = ("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
"Nibbana" = ("Dhamma + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible

Couple important Sutta that i belive to explain why Nibbana can be referred to as "Vinnana Anidassanam"
Nibbana Sutta:

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Mahavedalla Sutta:

"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"
Somewhat noteworthy is that both passages are attributed to Ven. Sariputta
DhP 203
Hunger is the highest illness. Conditioned things are the highest suffering.
Having known this as it is, Nirvana is the highest happiness.


User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by robertk » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:18 am

the Commentary by Buddhaghosa, and the sub-commentary.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Vinnanam Anidassanam. Classical Version.

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:33 pm

i revised my post and noticed that
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:08 pm
"Third Noble Truth" = ("Dhamma" + "not-Anicca" + "not-Dukkha" + "Anatta") = possible, not impossible
the above is actually a mistake, as the 3rd Noble Truth refers to the cessation of the sankharas rather than to the beyond. Rest is ok but regret including the underlined translator's commentary because it appears to be non-sense;
Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests