None, really. It's the dialectics that create problems. I don't think we know what the Buddha expected. It seems quite clear what the Buddha taught, though.Goofaholix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:33 amThe strawman that Bhikkhu Bodhi describes may be at odds with the Pali Canon, the point is I don't think that it's a very fair characterisation all of the modern mindfulness movement, maybe just the more naive proponents of it and/or the MBSR etc types totally divorced from Buddhism.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:38 am But the quote we are talking about goes on to say that this is quite at odds with the Pali Canon. Do you agree with that?
I don't know of any Buddhist teacher that doesn't encourage mindfulness, mindfulness encourages us to become interested and engaged with our moment to moment experience, this lays the foundation for insight to arise, which lays the foundation for Nibbida to arise and so on. In other words mindfulness is a foundation practice upon which other aspects of the path can develop.
Whereas traditional Theravada in addition to mindfulness also encourages renunciation, contemplation of the disgusting aspects of the body, contemplation of death, ascetic practices etc. So this is why I say on the surface the modern mindfulness movement looks more life affirming than traditional Theravada, but the Buddha never expected laypeople to practice like monastics, so what's the problem?
Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
In the suttas there is the idea of turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned. I'm not sure whether the modern mindfulness movement subscribes to this idea?Goofaholix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:33 am Whereas traditional Theravada in addition to mindfulness also encourages renunciation...,
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
When the practice of mindfulness is embarked upon, by virtue of the integrity of the dhamma it irrevocably leads towards dispassion and nibbana:
“…I organized my selection of suttas (in ‘In The Buddha’s Words’) by way of three benefits to which the practice of the Dhamma is said to lead: (1) welfare and happiness visible in this present life; (2) welfare and happiness pertaining to future lives; and (3) the supreme good, which is nibbana. The means to “the welfare and happiness visible in the present life’ is generosity, ethical conduct, and other acts that lead to interpersonal and community harmony. The “welfare and happiness pertaining to future lives” is the attainment of a fortunate rebirth. The practices that lead to this kind of well-being are essentially the same as those that lead to welfare and happiness in this present life, but they are viewed from a higher standpoint rooted in the acceptance of kamma as the determinant of human destiny and rebirth into various planes as the natural result of kamma. The third type of benefit, the supreme good, is nibbana, liberation from the entire cycle of rebirth. This cannot be won simply by virtuous conduct and meritorious deeds but requires the development of the noble eightfold path, with particular emphasis on the cultivation of concentration and wisdom.
It is in relation to this third type of benefit that the way of mindfulness plays a central role. The four establishments of mindfulness are said to be “the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the extinction of pain and dejection, for the achievement of the true way, and for the realisation of nibbana” (SN 47:1, V 141). They are “noble and emancipating, and lead the one who practices them onward to the complete destruction of suffering” (SN 47:17, V166). When developed and cultivated, they lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to superior knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbana” (SN 47:32, V179). In other words, in its original context, the cultivation of mindfulness is an integral part of a contemplative path to world-transcending liberation. The practice builds upon the second level of teaching, on kamma, rebirth, and the round of birth and death. It presupposes a critical insight into the intrinsic flaws of the human condition and a transcendent vision of the ultimately worthy goal of human endeavour. To lift the practice out from this context and transfer it to another context governed by a secular world view and mundane ends is to alter its function in crucial ways. It transforms the function of mindfulness from the spiritually liberative to the therapeutic, from the sacred to the ordinary, from the life transcending to the life-affirming.” —-“Handbook of Mindfulness: Culture, Context and Social Engagement”, Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi, contributing author.
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=nB ... &q&f=false
“…I organized my selection of suttas (in ‘In The Buddha’s Words’) by way of three benefits to which the practice of the Dhamma is said to lead: (1) welfare and happiness visible in this present life; (2) welfare and happiness pertaining to future lives; and (3) the supreme good, which is nibbana. The means to “the welfare and happiness visible in the present life’ is generosity, ethical conduct, and other acts that lead to interpersonal and community harmony. The “welfare and happiness pertaining to future lives” is the attainment of a fortunate rebirth. The practices that lead to this kind of well-being are essentially the same as those that lead to welfare and happiness in this present life, but they are viewed from a higher standpoint rooted in the acceptance of kamma as the determinant of human destiny and rebirth into various planes as the natural result of kamma. The third type of benefit, the supreme good, is nibbana, liberation from the entire cycle of rebirth. This cannot be won simply by virtuous conduct and meritorious deeds but requires the development of the noble eightfold path, with particular emphasis on the cultivation of concentration and wisdom.
It is in relation to this third type of benefit that the way of mindfulness plays a central role. The four establishments of mindfulness are said to be “the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the extinction of pain and dejection, for the achievement of the true way, and for the realisation of nibbana” (SN 47:1, V 141). They are “noble and emancipating, and lead the one who practices them onward to the complete destruction of suffering” (SN 47:17, V166). When developed and cultivated, they lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to superior knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbana” (SN 47:32, V179). In other words, in its original context, the cultivation of mindfulness is an integral part of a contemplative path to world-transcending liberation. The practice builds upon the second level of teaching, on kamma, rebirth, and the round of birth and death. It presupposes a critical insight into the intrinsic flaws of the human condition and a transcendent vision of the ultimately worthy goal of human endeavour. To lift the practice out from this context and transfer it to another context governed by a secular world view and mundane ends is to alter its function in crucial ways. It transforms the function of mindfulness from the spiritually liberative to the therapeutic, from the sacred to the ordinary, from the life transcending to the life-affirming.” —-“Handbook of Mindfulness: Culture, Context and Social Engagement”, Ven. Bikkhu Bodhi, contributing author.
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=nB ... &q&f=false
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Not in so many words, you make it sound like a new years resolution. Not for those interested in mindfulness as a stress reduction technique either, I'm primarily thinking of groups like IMS or Goenka who are trying to teach the Buddhist path in a way accessible to laypeople.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 pm In the suttas there is the idea of turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned. I'm not sure whether the modern mindfulness movement subscribes to this idea?
Turning away from the conditioned is not something one can do as an act of will, like turning a switch. As I've said while some teaching sounds like encouraging us to turn towards the conditioned which Bhikkhu Bodhi caricatures as " live in the world with an open mind and loving heart, capable of experiencing everything with awe and wonder" the point is that generating interest and engagement in the conditioned with mindfulness gives us the opportunity to see clearly its conditional, unsatisfactory and not self nature, this is when the turning away can naturally happen. Mindfulness is a solid foundation for this, but not the only practice it's a start and sometimes it can sound like it's the only practice because teachers have to teach groups of students according to the lowest common denominator.
Honestly, I'd have thought this common knowledge around here.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Spiny, which sutta(s) specifically talk about turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 pmIn the suttas there is the idea of turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned. I'm not sure whether the modern mindfulness movement subscribes to this idea?Goofaholix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:33 am Whereas traditional Theravada in addition to mindfulness also encourages renunciation...,
In the Satipatthana Sutta, there is no discussion concerning this or recommendation to do this. So, I'm wondering what are you referring to?
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Here is one example, from Itivuttaka:Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:23 amSpiny, which sutta(s) specifically talk about turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 pmIn the suttas there is the idea of turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned. I'm not sure whether the modern mindfulness movement subscribes to this idea?Goofaholix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:33 am Whereas traditional Theravada in addition to mindfulness also encourages renunciation...,
In the Satipatthana Sutta, there is no discussion concerning this or recommendation to do this. So, I'm wondering what are you referring to?
§ 43. The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}
[Alternate translation: Thanissaro]
This was said by the Lord...
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."
The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.
The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
So the mindfulness practitioner believes:
“... not that one should renounce the impermanent... but that one should learn to live in the world... experiencing everything with awe and wonder... a new affirmation of the world, so that one can joyfully savour each fleeting event, each relationship, each undertaking in its wistful evanescence, unperturbed when it passes."
But for the classical Buddhist:
"impermanence is ... deficiency ... the things we turn to for happiness are unworthy of our ultimate concern."
So, to paraphrase the Buddha conditioned things are unreliable, so you should become disenchanted with them, dispassionate toward them, and liberated from them. (SN 15:20, ii 193)
So, for a heterosexual male, a girlfriend is a conditioned thing, and therefore unreliable. So should he become disenchanted with her? Dispassionate towards her? Liberated from her? That is, should he give up that girlfriend? I suspect the answer is yes to these three questions, for Bodhi; he is a monk after all.
So how do you become disenchanted with a woman you feel you are in love with? I'm tempted to say, let nature take its course. She'll soon do stuff to make you disenchanted. But is there a quicker, less painful way? (Avoid women springs to mind, but what if you are already ensnared...)
You can see why "mindfulness practitioners" don't push this strong beer - many of their customers are probably in romantic relationships, got to keep them on board...
“... not that one should renounce the impermanent... but that one should learn to live in the world... experiencing everything with awe and wonder... a new affirmation of the world, so that one can joyfully savour each fleeting event, each relationship, each undertaking in its wistful evanescence, unperturbed when it passes."
But for the classical Buddhist:
"impermanence is ... deficiency ... the things we turn to for happiness are unworthy of our ultimate concern."
So, to paraphrase the Buddha conditioned things are unreliable, so you should become disenchanted with them, dispassionate toward them, and liberated from them. (SN 15:20, ii 193)
So, for a heterosexual male, a girlfriend is a conditioned thing, and therefore unreliable. So should he become disenchanted with her? Dispassionate towards her? Liberated from her? That is, should he give up that girlfriend? I suspect the answer is yes to these three questions, for Bodhi; he is a monk after all.
So how do you become disenchanted with a woman you feel you are in love with? I'm tempted to say, let nature take its course. She'll soon do stuff to make you disenchanted. But is there a quicker, less painful way? (Avoid women springs to mind, but what if you are already ensnared...)
You can see why "mindfulness practitioners" don't push this strong beer - many of their customers are probably in romantic relationships, got to keep them on board...
- Mal
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
The attitude described in the quote above also is quite at odds with mindfulness as I have seen it presented in professional, secular contexts. I have not heard a single presenter encourage "joyfully savoring each fleeting event." I think most professionals would reject this vanilla instruction in any case. Rather, the presenters I have heard have promoted mindfulness as a science-backed tool to assist in engaging with the challenges we all face.... The practice of mindfulness thus leads through the door of impermanence and selflessness to a new affirmation of the world, so that one can joyfully savour each fleeting event, each relationship, each undertaking in its wistful evanescence, unperturbed when it passes. ... This attitude ... is quite at odds with the Buddhism of the Pali Canon, the tradition from which mindfulness originates.
Many presenters reference MBSR. The website discusses "training about mindfulness-based stress reduction, healing and resilience, and the science and application of mind-body medicine." The attitude discussed in the quote in the OP appears to be a straw-man bastardization of the secular approach to mindfulness.
Last edited by L.N. on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
There are many such. One of the key phrases is etaṃ santaṃ, etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho, "This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, namely, the stilling of all saṅkhāras."Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:23 am Spiny, which sutta(s) specifically talk about turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned?
“’I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.’ Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: ‘This is peace, this is exquisite—the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbāna.’
https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.36
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
I googled mindfulness + enyjoment and got, among many other similar pages:L.N. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:53 pmThe attitude described in the quote above also is quite at adds with mindfulness as I have seen it presented in professional, secular contexts. I have not heard a single presenter encourage "joyfully savoring each fleeting event." I think most professionals would reject this vanilla instruction in any case. Rather, the presenters I have heard have promoted mindfulness as a science-backed tool to assist in engaging with the challenges we all face.
Many presenters reference MBSR. The website discusses "training about mindfulness-based stress reduction, healing and resilience, and the science and application of mind-body medicine." The attitude discussed in the quote in the OP appears to be a straw-man bastardization of the secular approach to mindfulness.
The point about this is that, if you make a point of mindfully cultivating your basic experience of enjoyment you can then practice integrating it into a whole spectrum of your life’s activities from the intense to the quiet. You can use your essential feeling of mindful enjoyment to enhance all of them!
http://tobyouvry.com/2015/06/the-spectr ... enjoyment/
Being mindful (paying attention) to your thoughts, feelings and actions is a way to connect with yourself, slow down and enjoy the moment – this one right now.
http://theblueroom.bupa.com.au/healthie ... enjoyment/
Mindfulness is sometimes presented in that vanilla, YOLO, "joyfully savoring each fleeting event" manner. As the examples above show, the secular approach to mindfulness has already been bastardized.Mindful eating of sweets boosts food enjoyment and mood
https://goamra.org/mindful-eating-sweet ... ment-mood/
I know a book about how to overcome emotional eating, written by a fancy NY psyhotherapist; it has received awards for excellence etc. It proposes to be scientific. There is a section on mindfulness, and how to miindfully enjoy food. I won't say what I wanted to do with the book and what I wanted to say to the author after reading that.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Mindfulness means remembering the teaching in each situation.
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
No doubt. Those examples are funny. Even so, one can google lots of silly stuff, and the quote in the OP does not reflect my personal experience with secular mindfulness presentations and the competence of individuals I know who present on mindfulness. It seems there is an effort here on DW to diminish the positive aspects of a broader discussion and recognition of mindfulness such as in these Topics:
viewtopic.php?t=24786
viewtopic.php?t=26059
I tend to agree with the following perspective:
Goofaholix wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:46 am... while some people have the attitude he described it's not really the point of such teachings, the point is to help us let go of resistance (ie aversion) and this is really just a first step.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Spiny, no doubt, the unconditioned may be there, but there is no mention of 'turning to the uncondtioned' in the practice of mindfulness as put forth in the Satipatthana Sutta. If the unconditioned were a 'thing', a 'state', we could turn to, it would not be unconditioned. Since the thread is about modern mindfulness, is 'turning to the unconditioned' one of the practices that is recommended?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:46 pmHere is one example, from Itivuttaka:Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:23 amSpiny, which sutta(s) specifically talk about turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:03 pm
In the suttas there is the idea of turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned. I'm not sure whether the modern mindfulness movement subscribes to this idea?
In the Satipatthana Sutta, there is no discussion concerning this or recommendation to do this. So, I'm wondering what are you referring to?
§ 43. The Not-born {Iti 2.16; Iti 37}
[Alternate translation: Thanissaro]
This was said by the Lord...
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."
The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.
The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
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Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Bhante, what you are referring to is not the same thing that Spiny put forth. Jhana is certainly helpful and leads to nibbida, etc.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:04 pmThere are many such. One of the key phrases is etaṃ santaṃ, etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho, "This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, namely, the stilling of all saṅkhāras."Saengnapha wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:23 am Spiny, which sutta(s) specifically talk about turning away from the conditioned, and towards the unconditioned?
“’I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.’ Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: ‘This is peace, this is exquisite—the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbāna.’
https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.36
Re: Bikkhu Bodhi on the errors of modern mindfulness
Yes, and modern mindfulness can be helpful toward this end.cappuccino wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:54 pm Mindfulness means remembering the teaching in each situation.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。