three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

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phil
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three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by phil » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Interested to find in one of my old notebooks that there are another "three marks" of conditioned dhammas other than annica, anatta, dukkha, namely arising, presence and falling away. And this is apparently in the suttanta, not only in Abhidhamma. Having trouble finding the sutta in question, Dr. Google only wants to come up with the usual three marks. Can anyone help?

Thanks
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:39 pm

Greetings Phil,

Yes, see SN 47.35
At Savatthi. "Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all.

"And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is how a monk is mindful.

"And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is how a monk is alert.

"So stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all."
For the sake of clarity, it's worth noting two things here...

1. In the sutta above the arising, persistence, and subsiding are not measured in the infinitesimal small time periods used to categorise arising and falling of dhammas in Abhidhamma. The timeframes are more 'conventional', if you will.

2. As per the Phena Sutta all these feelings, thoughts, perceptions etc. are fabricated, empty and void. Thus, arising, persistence, and subsiding are to be regarded as relative and pragmatic designations only and should not be regarded as absolutes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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phil
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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by phil » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Thanks Paul, that's the one
In the sutta above the arising, persistence, and subsiding are not measured in the infinitesimal small time periods used to categorise arising and falling of dhammas in Abhidhamma. The timeframes are more 'conventional', if you will.
Yes that definitely seems to be the case.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by JohnK » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:59 pm

So these characteristics seem to be a fine-tuning of or aid to seeing the anicca characteristic.
"Why is it, Master Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"
"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics" (AN 2: iv, 6, abridged).
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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by paul » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:19 am

“Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.” —MN 10

In terms of practical insight meditation, although the wording of the Satipatthana suttas (D 22, MN 10) does not make any differentiation of value between origination and dissolution, the tenor of the sutta teaching is that the emphasis is placed on dissolution, for example the importance of the asubha meditations. Proceeding to the Vism., the contemplation of dissolution is emphasised (c.XXI), following on from impermanence in the nine insight knowledges. In my opinion this is an example of the value of the eight hundred years of practical meditation experience stored in the Vism., as primal instincts favour the ‘ripeness’ state over the dissolution state in food gathering, humans are conditioned that way and so in practice, special attention must be given to awareness of dissolution. This aforementioned primal conditioning is expressed in the doctrine in the three unwholesome roots (which are the source of the vipallasa hallucinations).
Although the expanded explanation of the nine insight knowledges is found in the Vism., an abbreviated form is seen in the Anapanasati sutta, where it lists impermanence, dispassion, cessation and relinquishment in sequence (I suspect that the suttas are more fragmentary than many realise). Dispassion, viraga, can also be rendered as ‘fading away’, and can be taken as momentary, or alternatively the dissolution phase of impermanence in general terms, which is more easily experienced and understood.
Last edited by paul on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:04 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:39 pm
1. In the sutta above the arising, persistence, and subsiding are not measured in the infinitesimal small time periods used to categorise arising and falling of dhammas in Abhidhamma. The timeframes are more 'conventional', if you will.
I suspect you mean the Commentaries. I am not aware of anything about infinitesimally small time periods in the Canonical Abhidhamma.

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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by Spiny Norman » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:20 am

JohnK wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:59 pm
So these characteristics seem to be a fine-tuning of or aid to seeing the anicca characteristic.
Yes. It's about noticing change, transience, arising, ceasing, passing.
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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by phil » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:27 am

[]
I suspect you mean the Commentaries. I am not aware of anything about infinitesimally small time periods in the Canonical Abhidhamma.
I was wondering about that. Was it first taught in the abhidhammattha-sangaha? If I'm not mistaken the 17 (?) moments of the citta process were though I'm happy to be corrected. (I still take the ancient commentaries to trump modern ideas in this particular forum, of course.)
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:43 am

Hi Phil,
phil wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:27 am
I was wondering about that. Was it first taught in the abhidhammattha-sangaha? ...
No, that's all in the Visuddhimagga (and presumably the commentaries that the VM summarizes). The abhidhammattha-sangaha is much later than the VM.

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phil
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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by phil » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:47 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:43 am
Hi Phil,
phil wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:27 am
I was wondering about that. Was it first taught in the abhidhammattha-sangaha? ...
No, that's all in the Visuddhimagga (and presumably the commentaries that the VM summarizes). The abhidhammattha-sangaha is much later than the VM.
I see, thanks.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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phil
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Re: three marks of conditioned dhammas: origination, presence, cessation

Post by phil » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:33 pm

WIth respect to presence, could someone help me find the sutta that says that one of the ways that the Dhamma is confirmable by the wise (?, I forget the exact words used) is the presence or absence of lust, hatred etc?
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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