Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
User avatar
phil
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by phil »

Listening to a BBC podcast on developing a perfectly ethtical robot, I started thinking about one thing that makes the development of sila so variable in people, the Abhidhamma teaching on prompted and unprompted with respect to cittas. (One teacher I have heard who is very keen on Abhidhamma said that she preferred not to refer to prompted/unprompted, it was better to just say that the kusala or akusala is strong or not…not sure about that.)

In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by L.N. »

phil wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pm Listening to a BBC podcast on developing a perfectly ethtical robot, I started thinking about one thing that makes the development of sila so variable in people, the Abhidhamma teaching on prompted and unprompted with respect to cittas. (One teacher I have heard who is very keen on Abhidhamma said that she preferred not to refer to prompted/unprompted, it was better to just say that the kusala or akusala is strong or not…not sure about that.)

In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
It can come up in the form of examples.
An unprompted citta (asankhaarika-citta) is one which arises spontaneously, without deliberation or premeditation on our own part and without inducement by others. These unprompted cittas, too, may be unwholesome or wholesome.

There are some people in whom greed and hate are so strong that the cittas that arise in them need no prompting from within or without. They spontaneously cling to what they think they possess and try to enhance their belongings by exploiting others. They do not know what generosity is, they are quick to criticize others; if they get a chance they will destroy everything that stands in the way of their attempts to boost their own ego. On the other hand, there are others who give willingly and joyfully, who do not hesitate to help their needy fellow beings, and who will even risk their own lives to save those in distress.

These divers characters — the misers, tyrants, murderers, heroes, and benefactors — are what they are because of their past tendencies built up in previous lives. However, the law of kamma and its fruit prevails at all times at all times and a change can occur for the better or worse, as in the cases of Angulimaala and Devadatta. The former started off as a vicious murderer but later became an enlightened saint; the latter, the Buddha's cousin, entered the Order as a monk but later attempted to kill the Buddha and take control of the Sangha himself.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Dhammanando »

phil wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pmIn what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
There is the Bhūmijasutta:
“Ānanda, when there is the body, because of bodily volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is speech, because of verbal volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is the mind, because of mental volition pleasure and pain arise internally—and with ignorance as condition. “Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.25
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by binocular »

phil wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pmIn what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
Cetana Sutta: An Act of Will

"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.

"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.

"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.

"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.

"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.

"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.

"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.

"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.

"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.

"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
phil
Posts: 874
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:08 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by phil »

Thank you all for your feedback, very helpful. :smile:
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by SarathW »

In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
The best example I can give is'
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:01 am
In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
The best example I can give is'
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
The first one appears to be problematic.
Isn't it like this:

A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:39 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:01 am
In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
The best example I can give is'
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
The first one appears to be problematic.
Isn't it like this:

A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
I am glad I found one in this forum who got some insight into Abhidhamma.
They both come under the heading anger hence both should be Domanassasahagatam.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:02 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:39 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:01 am
The best example I can give is'
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
The first one appears to be problematic.
Isn't it like this:

A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
I am glad I found one in this forum who got some insight into Abhidhamma.
They both come under the heading anger hence both should be Domanassasahagatam.
Okay, my example might not correct for these circumstances since the killing involved anger.

Scenario 1: The people, out of anger accompanied by aversion, kill living being by his/her own effort, and the deed was done.

So this should be "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

Scenario 2: The people, out of anger accompanied by aversion, kill living being as he/she was motivated by someone or driven by certain circumstance, and the deed was done.

This should be "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

Perhaps my examples in previous post above are more suitable for scenarios such as the Islamic festival of Eid al-Adha, the Day of Great Sacrifice, when the Muslims will happily slaughter millions, if not, thousands of cows, oxen, goats in the name of Allah and seeing it as a good deed in the eyes of Allah Subhannahu Wa' Taala ( Merit or الـثَّوَابُ و الـمَثُوْبَةُ، الأَجْرُ in Islam) and contribute for their chances to go Heaven during Afterlife ( Akhirat or الآخرة in Islamic term). This happened in many mosque around my place. The Muslims believe that by killing these sacrificial animals, the blood of these animals will cleanse all sins of the believers of Allah as according to Islam teachings recorded in HR. Al-Bazzar dan Ibnu Hibban.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by SarathW »

No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
Really? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:59 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
Really? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?
As I said before if you just think of killing it is Asankharika.
If you really kill someone it is Sasankharika.
I may be wrong however this was confirmed by an Abhidhamma teacher.
I like to know what Ven. Dhammanado thinks in this case.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:17 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:59 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.

This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
Really? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?
As I said before if you just think of killing it is Asankharika.
If you really kill someone it is Sasankharika.
I may be wrong however this was confirmed by an Abhidhamma teacher.
I like to know what Ven. Dhammanado thinks in this case.
Which teacher ?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by Ontheway »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:04 pm
phil wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pmIn what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
There is the Bhūmijasutta:
“Ānanda, when there is the body, because of bodily volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is speech, because of verbal volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is the mind, because of mental volition pleasure and pain arise internally—and with ignorance as condition. “Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.25
Dear SarathW,

Bhante Dhammanando posted this Suttanta, and the traditional interpretation such as Abhidhamattha Sangaha and Visuddhimagga are following this Suttanta.

Just for your reference.
Last edited by Ontheway on Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:25 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:17 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:59 am

Really? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?
As I said before if you just think of killing it is Asankharika.
If you really kill someone it is Sasankharika.
I may be wrong however this was confirmed by an Abhidhamma teacher.
I like to know what Ven. Dhammanado thinks in this case.
Which teacher ?
At this stage I might not disclose it in any case I got this wrong. I will PM you later.
It is not fair to him as I do not have the source reference.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Post Reply