Listening to a BBC podcast on developing a perfectly ethtical robot, I started thinking about one thing that makes the development of sila so variable in people, the Abhidhamma teaching on prompted and unprompted with respect to cittas. (One teacher I have heard who is very keen on Abhidhamma said that she preferred not to refer to prompted/unprompted, it was better to just say that the kusala or akusala is strong or not…not sure about that.)
In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
It can come up in the form of examples.phil wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:14 pm Listening to a BBC podcast on developing a perfectly ethtical robot, I started thinking about one thing that makes the development of sila so variable in people, the Abhidhamma teaching on prompted and unprompted with respect to cittas. (One teacher I have heard who is very keen on Abhidhamma said that she preferred not to refer to prompted/unprompted, it was better to just say that the kusala or akusala is strong or not…not sure about that.)
In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta? It seems like it should, in some form or another.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.htmlAn unprompted citta (asankhaarika-citta) is one which arises spontaneously, without deliberation or premeditation on our own part and without inducement by others. These unprompted cittas, too, may be unwholesome or wholesome.
There are some people in whom greed and hate are so strong that the cittas that arise in them need no prompting from within or without. They spontaneously cling to what they think they possess and try to enhance their belongings by exploiting others. They do not know what generosity is, they are quick to criticize others; if they get a chance they will destroy everything that stands in the way of their attempts to boost their own ego. On the other hand, there are others who give willingly and joyfully, who do not hesitate to help their needy fellow beings, and who will even risk their own lives to save those in distress.
These divers characters — the misers, tyrants, murderers, heroes, and benefactors — are what they are because of their past tendencies built up in previous lives. However, the law of kamma and its fruit prevails at all times at all times and a change can occur for the better or worse, as in the cases of Angulimaala and Devadatta. The former started off as a vicious murderer but later became an enlightened saint; the latter, the Buddha's cousin, entered the Order as a monk but later attempted to kill the Buddha and take control of the Sangha himself.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro
愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6494
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
There is the Bhūmijasutta:
“Ānanda, when there is the body, because of bodily volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is speech, because of verbal volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is the mind, because of mental volition pleasure and pain arise internally—and with ignorance as condition. “Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.25
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Cetana Sutta: An Act of Will
"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue.
"For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse.
"For a joyful person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May rapture arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that rapture arises in a joyful person.
"For a rapturous person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my body be serene.' It is in the nature of things that a rapturous person grows serene in body.
"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure.
"For a person experiencing pleasure, there is no need for an act of will, 'May my mind grow concentrated.' It is in the nature of things that the mind of a person experiencing pleasure grows concentrated.
"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.
"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.
"For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.
"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.
"In this way, dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward.
"In this way, mental qualities lead on to mental qualities, mental qualities bring mental qualities to their consummation, for the sake of going from the near to the Further Shore."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Thank you all for your feedback, very helpful.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
The best example I can give is'In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
The first one appears to be problematic.SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:01 amThe best example I can give is'In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
Isn't it like this:
A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
I am glad I found one in this forum who got some insight into Abhidhamma.Ontheway wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:39 amThe first one appears to be problematic.SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:01 amThe best example I can give is'In what ways does something akin to prompted/unprompted come up in the suttanta?
Un Prompted or without motivation (Asankarika) - A person thinking of killing an animal or human but did not kill.
Prompted or with motivation (Sasankarika) - A person thinking of killing and killed the animal or the human.
Isn't it like this:
A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
They both come under the heading anger hence both should be Domanassasahagatam.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Okay, my example might not correct for these circumstances since the killing involved anger.SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:02 amI am glad I found one in this forum who got some insight into Abhidhamma.Ontheway wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:39 amThe first one appears to be problematic.
Isn't it like this:
A person, with an intention to destroy life by himself or herself, thought that killing is blameless, kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
A person, with intention to destroy life, thought that killing is blameless, after encouraged or motivated by someone else or certain circumstances, he/she kill a being and done the deed with joyful satisfaction.
Therefore it is: "Somanassasahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
Both of them will cause the Vipaka citta, and since these actions are blameworthy, therefore they will lead to the appearance of 7 Akusala Vipaka Cittas.
They both come under the heading anger hence both should be Domanassasahagatam.
Scenario 1: The people, out of anger accompanied by aversion, kill living being by his/her own effort, and the deed was done.
So this should be "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
Scenario 2: The people, out of anger accompanied by aversion, kill living being as he/she was motivated by someone or driven by certain circumstance, and the deed was done.
This should be "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
Perhaps my examples in previous post above are more suitable for scenarios such as the Islamic festival of Eid al-Adha, the Day of Great Sacrifice, when the Muslims will happily slaughter millions, if not, thousands of cows, oxen, goats in the name of Allah and seeing it as a good deed in the eyes of Allah Subhannahu Wa' Taala ( Merit or الـثَّوَابُ و الـمَثُوْبَةُ، الأَجْرُ in Islam) and contribute for their chances to go Heaven during Afterlife ( Akhirat or الآخرة in Islamic term). This happened in many mosque around my place. The Muslims believe that by killing these sacrificial animals, the blood of these animals will cleanse all sins of the believers of Allah as according to Islam teachings recorded in HR. Al-Bazzar dan Ibnu Hibban.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Really? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
As I said before if you just think of killing it is Asankharika.Ontheway wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:59 amReally? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
If you really kill someone it is Sasankharika.
I may be wrong however this was confirmed by an Abhidhamma teacher.
I like to know what Ven. Dhammanado thinks in this case.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Which teacher ?SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:17 amAs I said before if you just think of killing it is Asankharika.Ontheway wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:59 amReally? What do you mean by asankharikam and sasankharikam then? In your opinion?SarathW wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:03 am No.
Both of your examples are "Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam sasankharikam, ekam" consciousness.
This is the exact reason I did my post to clarify this.
All the Abhidhamma interpretations (in regard to Sasankara and Asankhara) in all books are wrong.
If you really kill someone it is Sasankharika.
I may be wrong however this was confirmed by an Abhidhamma teacher.
I like to know what Ven. Dhammanado thinks in this case.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
Dear SarathW,Dhammanando wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:04 pmThere is the Bhūmijasutta:
“Ānanda, when there is the body, because of bodily volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is speech, because of verbal volition pleasure and pain arise internally; when there is the mind, because of mental volition pleasure and pain arise internally—and with ignorance as condition. “Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that verbal volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
“Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that mental volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.25
Bhante Dhammanando posted this Suttanta, and the traditional interpretation such as Abhidhamattha Sangaha and Visuddhimagga are following this Suttanta.
Just for your reference.
Last edited by Ontheway on Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: Prompted/unprompted cittas in the suttanta
At this stage I might not disclose it in any case I got this wrong. I will PM you later.Ontheway wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:25 amWhich teacher ?
It is not fair to him as I do not have the source reference.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”