Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

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maranadhammomhi
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Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by maranadhammomhi » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:39 pm

thanks
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CedarTree
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by CedarTree » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:31 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote:thanks
Because of the Bhikkhu Bodhi piano video? ;)

It's a bit more fundamental in some senses than the Vinaya.

The 10 precepts:

1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.

2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.

3. Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual activity.

4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.

5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

6. Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon).

7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visuka-dassana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing,singing, music, going to see entertainments.


8. Mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics.

9. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place.

10. Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver (money).

(from Digha Nikaya 1; Vinaya, Mahavagga I 56.1)


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Garrib
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by Garrib » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:00 am

I believe that playing music, singing, and dancing are dukkata offenses according to the Vinaya; all that a monastic needs to do for full rehabilitation is to make a simple confession.

About music in the Vinaya: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=12340

About hierarchy of offenses in the Vinaya: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=15180

binocular
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:51 am

Garrib wrote:I believe that playing music, singing, and dancing are dukkata offenses according to the Vinaya; all that a monastic needs to do for full rehabilitation is to make a simple confession.
Even if he freely (and gladly) engaged in the offense??

Garrib
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by Garrib » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:08 pm

binocular wrote:
Garrib wrote:I believe that playing music, singing, and dancing are dukkata offenses according to the Vinaya; all that a monastic needs to do for full rehabilitation is to make a simple confession.
Even if he freely (and gladly) engaged in the offense??
As far as I know, Yes. Most monastics are imperfect human beings, as are most people in general.

santa100
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:11 pm

The question is, did the monk recognized what he did was indeed an offense and so will carry out the proper correction procedure to not breaking it again in the future, or he thought that someone like him is already above and beyond the system? Only time will tell for there'll be many more fundraising events in the future to show whether he'll do it again or not.

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CedarTree
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by CedarTree » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:02 pm

Could also be that he thinks this part of the Vinaya is bunk.


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aflatun
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by aflatun » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:12 pm

I wonder what the Vinaya says about people spending precious time on a forum speculating as to a monk's possible breach of ethics instead of taking their presumably sincere and well motivated concerns to him directly
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

santa100
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:18 pm

When a video of one of the world's top scholars, if not the best of his generation, did something funky over the internet, it's only fair game for that to be questioned by folks over the internet. He's very comfortable with using the net and I'm pretty sure he's aware of what people are saying right now. Afterall, this is not speculation, it's all about awareness and full transparency.

maranadhammomhi
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by maranadhammomhi » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:33 pm

I love Bhikkhu Bodhi, but yes it was this event which triggered this post.

I just want to be clear on how his conduct aligns with the Vinaya. Regardless of whether it is against or in-line with it I will not criticize him for it. Just want to know the reality of the situation.
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CedarTree
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by CedarTree » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:00 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote:I love Bhikkhu Bodhi, but yes it was this event which triggered this post.

I just want to be clear on how his conduct aligns with the Vinaya. Regardless of whether it is against or in-line with it I will not criticize him for it. Just want to know the reality of the situation.
All good, it's a good question to ask. :)

Bhikkhu Bodhi is an amazing monastic who has really done a lot for the English speaking Sangha/Community.

Additionally he is a pretty dang nice person in general and a I think a lot of Western and European individuals that have had the pleasure of interacting with him think very highly of him (Myself included) :)


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aflatun
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by aflatun » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:04 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote: I just want to be clear on how his conduct aligns with the Vinaya. Regardless of whether it is against or in-line with it I will not criticize him for it. Just want to know the reality of the situation.
Which is totally legitimate, I wasn't referring to your query :)
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

binocular
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by binocular » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:56 pm

aflatun wrote:I wonder what the Vinaya says about people spending precious time on a forum speculating as to a monk's possible breach of ethics instead of taking their presumably sincere and well motivated concerns to him directly
Really, you think he'd actually reply?

binocular
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by binocular » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:25 pm

Garrib wrote:
binocular wrote:
Garrib wrote:I believe that playing music, singing, and dancing are dukkata offenses according to the Vinaya; all that a monastic needs to do for full rehabilitation is to make a simple confession.
Even if he freely (and gladly) engaged in the offense??
As far as I know, Yes. Most monastics are imperfect human beings, as are most people in general.
That's a travesty then.

One thing is to commit an offense in the heat of the moment, or as a genuine mistake, or after one has been plagued with a passion for a long time, resisted it, but was finally overcome.

It's something quite different to commit an offense freely and gladly.

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mikenz66
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:23 pm

binocular wrote:
aflatun wrote:I wonder what the Vinaya says about people spending precious time on a forum speculating as to a monk's possible breach of ethics instead of taking their presumably sincere and well motivated concerns to him directly
Really, you think he'd actually reply?
In my experience Bhikkhu Bodhi is good at replying to queries. I've occasionally asked him questions by email and got prompt replies.

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Dharmic
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by Dharmic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:49 am

Instead of discussing about the subject in the OP some are simply skirting around the issue. When it comes to other topics some people quote the Buddha's words enthusiastically but now instead of calling a spade a spade they are trying to deflect attention from the actual issue by bringing up irrelevant points.
Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world.

What four kinds? The four kinds are:

(1) Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
(2) Some people praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.
(3) Some people do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
(4) Some people blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, these four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. Of these four kinds of people, that kind should be the most fair and right, the most refined, to you?

"Venerable Lord Gotama, of all those four kinds of people, the kind of person who does not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and does not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time; is the kind of person who is the most beautiful and refined to me. What is the reason for this? Because this is fair and right with upekkha (equanimity)."

Potaliya, of all those four kinds of people, whichever kind of person blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time; this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people. What is the reason for this? It is fair and right because such a one knows the right time in those circumstances.
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Aho! Buddho! Aho! Suddho! Aho! Saṃsuddhamānaso!
Aho! Aho! Mettāsindhu! Buddhaṃ taṃ paṇamāmyahaṃ!


Natthi me saraṅaṃ aññaṃ Buddho me saranaṃ varaṃ
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.

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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by binocular » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:56 am

mikenz66 wrote:In my experience Bhikkhu Bodhi is good at replying to queries. I've occasionally asked him questions by email and got prompt replies.
Was it him who replied, or his secretary?

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mikenz66
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:43 pm

What secretary?

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CedarTree
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by CedarTree » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:17 pm

mikenz66 wrote:What secretary?

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binocular just likes to stir up things.


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Aloka
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Re: Where in the Vinaya are bhikkhus forbidden from touching/playing musical instruments

Post by Aloka » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:16 am

CedarTree wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:What secretary?

:heart:
Mike
binocular just likes to stir up things.
I don't think that's a very helpful comment to make in a discussion.

Monasteries often have "Contact Us" forms to fill in with personal details , and communications with people as well known as Bhikkhu Bodhi might have to be discreetly checked by someone else first, before they even get to BB, because there are so many abusive people on the internet (and in the outside world) these days .

When I was involved with Tibetan Buddhism some of the teachers had students who were also personal assistants and typed out replies to e-mails or letters from dictation.

It also meant that communications were kept more open, rather than secretive.



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