Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

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Dmytro
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Re: Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

Post by Dmytro » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:36 am

Hi DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:13 am
Imo, the key here is determining what the suffix "attāya" means :shrug: .
It's a suffix plus ending.
-āya f. sg. instr. abl. dat. gen. loc. kaññāya (from the girl, etc.), gāthāya (by/from the verse, of the verse, in the verse)
https://dhamma.ru/paali/tables/palisufi.htm
-tta: expresses the state, nature or quality of being that which is denoted by the adj. or noun: puthujjana, a common man +tta=puthujjanattaṃ, the state of being a common man; buddha, a buddha +tta=buddhattaṃ, Buddhahood; atthi he is +tta=atthittaṃ the state of "he is", existence.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/toolbox/suf.html#T
https://dhamma.ru/paali/durois/paligram.pdf#page=109

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Re: Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:35 am

Dmytro wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:36 am
-āya f. sg. instr. abl. dat. gen. loc. kaññāya (from the girl, etc.), gāthāya (by/from the verse, of the verse, in the verse)
https://dhamma.ru/paali/tables/palisufi.htm
-tta: expresses the state, nature or quality of being that which is denoted by the adj. or noun: puthujjana, a common man +tta=puthujjanattaṃ, the state of being a common man; buddha, a buddha +tta=buddhattaṃ, Buddhahood; atthi he is +tta=atthittaṃ the state of "he is", existence.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/toolbox/suf.html#T
https://dhamma.ru/paali/durois/paligram.pdf#page=109
Thank you Dmytro. You appear to be saying "āya" means "from". As for "tta", I thought it meant "state". If I understand correctly (which I may not), I would be inclined to maintain the essence of my translation, expressed as follows:
Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti

Constructs (abhi­saṅ­kha­ronti) constructed-thing (saṅ­kha­ta­m) form (rūpaṃ) from (āya) the mere state (tta) of mere form (rūpaṃ).
Again, here, sankhara constructs the illusion of something real, solid & important about the aggregates, when, in reality, the aggregates are as described in the Phena Sutta, namely, an unsubstantial & worthless lump of foam, a bubble, a mirage, a hollow tree and a magicians trick.

:smile:
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Re: Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

Post by Dmytro » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:35 am
Thank you Dmytro.
You are welcome.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:35 am
You appear to be saying "āya" means "from".
No. Please don't involve me in this. There's too much postmodern DIY-Buddhism projects around.

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Re: Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:34 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:32 pm
No. Please don't involve me in this. There's too much postmodern DIY-Buddhism projects around.
OK. My apologies Dmytro. How would you translate the verse? Thanks :smile:
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Re: Could someone please help me out here? This sutta has thrown me into confusion.

Post by Dmytro » Tue May 01, 2018 1:25 pm

I'll just add the explanation by Venerable Bodhi:
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.[112] And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form;[113] they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.
  • 112. Saṅkhataṃ abhisaṅkharontī ti bhikkhave tasmā saṅkhārā ti vuccanti . Unfortunately English is a poor medium for capturing the interconnections of this sentence in the Pāli, with the object (saṅkhataṃ), the verb (abhisaṅkharonti), and the subject (saṅkhārā) all derived from the same stem. See my discussion of saṅkhārā in the General Introduction, pp. 44-47. To replicate the Pāli we might have rendered it, “They construct the constructed, therefore they are called volitional constructions,” though this would bear certain connotations quite alien to the original. It is also an unfortunate coincidence that “volitional formations,” my rendering for saṅkhārā, is related to “form,” my rendering for rūpa. In Pāli there is no etymological tie between rūpa and saṅkhārā. To capture the several nuances of the verb abhisaṅkharotiwe might have taken the liberty of rendering it, in this passage, by two verbs: “to generate,” which conveys the idea that the volitional formations actually produce the other aggregates (see the following note); and “to form,” which makes apparent the correspondence with the noun “formations.”

    This passage shows the active role of cetanā, volition, in constructing experienced reality. Not only does volition influence the objective content of the experience, but it also shapes the psychophysical organism within which it has arisen and, via its role as kamma, shapes the future configurations of the five aggregates to be produced by kamma. In this connection see 35:146, on the six sense bases as “old kamma.”


    113. All three printed eds. of SN read, rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅkhataṃ abhisaṅkharonti, and so for the other aggregates, except viññāṇa, where Ee reads, viññāṇatthāya; however, since Ee has no note on vv.ll., this is almost certainly an editorial inconsistency rather than a meaningful variant. Spk (Se and Ee) reads rūpatthāya in its lemma, implying that the termination -atthāya should apply to every aggregate, and apparently old Sinhalese mss of SN had this reading. Spk (Be), however, has rūpattāya. The explanation in Spk is equally intelligible on either reading of SN.

    I follow Be here: “As one is said to cook conjee as conjee, to bake a cake as a cake, so it [Spk-pṭ: the collection of states headed by volition] constructs, builds up, amasses (abhisaṅkharoti āyūhati sampiṇḍati) form itself—called ‘the conditioned’ because it is made by a combination of conditions—so that it becomes ‘conditioned form’ in accordance with its nature, for its formness (tathattāya rūpabhāvāya); the meaning is that it produces it (nipphādetī ti attho). This is the sense in brief: It constructs, produces the form arising along with itself and the associated feeling, etc. Here, too, the Blessed One shows just the specific characteristic of volitional formations, whose characteristic is volition. [Spk-pṭ: This is said because volition is the chief of the states belonging to the aggregate of volitional formations.]”
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