According to the commentary tradition, how much matter is generated from volition?

[zan]

In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha it is stated that there is kamma (volition) born materiality.
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha VI 10

I assume this is an explanation of phrases such as this from the suttas:

"They construct the conditioned', bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form..."
-SN 22.79

How much of the matter in the world around us is generated by our own volition then?

Does one's own volition here and now generate matter? For example if one were to kill an animal, might that generate a comet in space that will then fly through the atmosphere and crush one?

If one were to generate the bloodthirsty volition to kill all of the animals on one's property, might that generate matter in the form of a metal safe that one's weapon would be locked inside of so that one might not get at it?

If our volitions generate matter, on the other hand, might the very positive volitions generate positive matter?

Might a person use the knowledge of this to add physical objects to another's life? For example if one could figure out which volition generated matter in the form of a full refrigerator, could not one replicate this volition for a homeless shelter?

Could one not map and master the art of creating matter by learning which volitions create which kinds of objects here and now and create a better world for everyone?

How much of the matter around us is from past volitions and how much from the present?

[Caodemarte]

I don't see how the interpretation that volition creates matter makes much sense. Have others in the tradition interpreted this as the actual creation of matter? It would not seem to fit in with accepted Buddhist teachings, but I am not an expert.

[zan]

I don't see how the interpretation that volition creates matter makes much sense. Have others in the tradition interpreted this as the actual creation of matter? It would not seem to fit in with accepted Buddhist teachings, but I am not an expert.

Thanks. I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you're right. I am too ignorant to understand the Abhidhammattha Sangaha unfortunately it seems or I would have a more clear understanding.

[robertk]

the matter making up comets and the other non-living examples you give are produced by temperature, they are not cittajarupa.
Cittajarupas normally apply only to (some) rupas produced within a living being.
In Sujin Boriharnwanaket's Survey of paramattha dhammas appendix:

"Cittaja rupas

There are six kalapas of rupa originated from citta:

1. the pure octad, suddhatthaka kalapa, a group of eight rupas consisting of only the eight inseparable rupas (avinibbhoga rupas). When the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away it is succeeded by bhavanga-citta. Cittajarupa which is a pure octad is produced at the arising moment (uppada khana) of the first bhavanga-citta, and also after that, throughout life, it is produced at the arising moment of citta. [sixteen types of citta which do not produce rupa are then explained - four types of arupa-jhana vipakacittas, the rebirth-consciousness, the five pairs of sensecognitions, and the dying-consciousness of the arahat.]

2. The nonad of bodily intimation, kaya-vinnatti, a kalapa of nine rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas and bodily intimation. The citta that conveys a specific meaning produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

3. The decad of speech intimation, vaci-vinnatti, a kalapa of ten rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas, speech intimation and sound, sadda rupa. The citta that originates speech sound produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

4. The undecad of lightness, lahuta, a kalapa of eleven rupas which are the eight inseparable rupas and the three vikara rupas, the rupas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahuta, plasticity, muduta, and wieldiness, kammannata. The citta that wants to assume different postures produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

5. The dodecad of bodily intimation and lightness, a kalapa of twelve rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas, the three vikara rupas, and bodily intimation. The citta that wants by way of bodily expression or different gestures to convey a specific meaning produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

6. The tridecad of speech intimation, sound and lightness, a kalapa of thirteen rupas which are the eight inseparable rupas, the three vikara rupas, speech intimation and sound. The citta that wants the utterance of a specific sound produces at its arising moment this kalapa. That sound arises in dependence on the vikara rupas at the rupa which is the base of that sound

Each kalapa of cittajarupa is produced by citta at its arising moment (uppada khana), not at the moment of its presence (titthi khana) nor at the moment of its falling away (bhanga khana)"

[zan]

the matter making up comets and the other non-living examples you give are produced by temperature, they are not cittajarupa.
Cittajarupas normally apply only to (some) rupas produced within a living being.
In Sujin Boriharnwanaket's Survey of paramattha dhammas appendix:

"Cittaja rupas

There are six kalapas of rupa originated from citta:

1. the pure octad, suddhatthaka kalapa, a group of eight rupas consisting of only the eight inseparable rupas (avinibbhoga rupas). When the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away it is succeeded by bhavanga-citta. Cittajarupa which is a pure octad is produced at the arising moment (uppada khana) of the first bhavanga-citta, and also after that, throughout life, it is produced at the arising moment of citta. [sixteen types of citta which do not produce rupa are then explained - four types of arupa-jhana vipakacittas, the rebirth-consciousness, the five pairs of sensecognitions, and the dying-consciousness of the arahat.]

2. The nonad of bodily intimation, kaya-vinnatti, a kalapa of nine rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas and bodily intimation. The citta that conveys a specific meaning produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

3. The decad of speech intimation, vaci-vinnatti, a kalapa of ten rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas, speech intimation and sound, sadda rupa. The citta that originates speech sound produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

4. The undecad of lightness, lahuta, a kalapa of eleven rupas which are the eight inseparable rupas and the three vikara rupas, the rupas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahuta, plasticity, muduta, and wieldiness, kammannata. The citta that wants to assume different postures produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

5. The dodecad of bodily intimation and lightness, a kalapa of twelve rupas, which are the eight inseparable rupas, the three vikara rupas, and bodily intimation. The citta that wants by way of bodily expression or different gestures to convey a specific meaning produces at its arising moment this kalapa.

6. The tridecad of speech intimation, sound and lightness, a kalapa of thirteen rupas which are the eight inseparable rupas, the three vikara rupas, speech intimation and sound. The citta that wants the utterance of a specific sound produces at its arising moment this kalapa. That sound arises in dependence on the vikara rupas at the rupa which is the base of that sound

Each kalapa of cittajarupa is produced by citta at its arising moment (uppada khana), not at the moment of its presence (titthi khana) nor at the moment of its falling away (bhanga khana)"

Thank you. Is "cittajarupa" consciousness born materiality?

What about kamma born materiality? The sutta quote seems to imply that kamma or volition can create matter here and now. Is this matter also confined to being within a living being and would not create objects like comets, etc.?

[robertk]

Thank you. Is "cittajarupa" consciousness born materiality?

Yes

What about kamma born materiality? The sutta quote seems to imply that kamma or volition can create matter here and now. Is this matter also confined to being within a living being and would not create objects like comets, etc.?

that is correct. Kammajarupa normally only applies to specific matter within living beings such as the heart base, eye base, ear base and so.

this is extremely subtle matter .

So upon death of a being the bases immediately stop rearising yet one can still see the large physical eye ( which is produced by temperature) .

There is one exception that I know of which is the Vimanavathhus, the mansions of powerful devas, which apparently arise due in some way to the immense wholesome kamma of the being who will live there. not sure how that works .

[zan]

Thank you. Is "cittajarupa" consciousness born materiality?

Yes

What about kamma born materiality? The sutta quote seems to imply that kamma or volition can create matter here and now. Is this matter also confined to being within a living being and would not create objects like comets, etc.?

that is correct. Kammajarupa normally only applies to specific matter within living beings such as the heart base, eye base, ear base and so.

this is extremely subtle matter .

So upon death of a being the bases immediately stop rearising yet one can still see the large physical eye ( which is produced by temperature) .

There is one exception that I know of which is the Vimanavathhus, the mansions of powerful devas, which apparently arise due in some way to the immense wholesome kamma of the being who will live there. not sure how that works .

Okay thank you.

So for example if a person creates certain volitions in their life they will be the recievers of these volitions, in regards to form, in their next life in the form of materiality born from those volitions in their body (or mansion if that kind of deva)?

But they do not and cannot use volition to create a new body or continue their current body in this life nor to create useful objects, etc. ?

[robertk]

Please explain what you mean by volition?

[Caodemarte]

What can be meant by the statements that temperature creates matter, like comets?

[robertk]

What can be meant by the statements that temperature creates matter, like comets?

ActuallyI think I said temperature makes the matter in comets, not comets.
Comets are only concept. However the trillions and zillions of kalapas that make up what we call a comet are real. Kalapas in non living matter are always an octet of the 4 mahabhutarupas and 4 other rupas. Kalapas last only an infinitely short time, but may rearise continually if there are sufficient conditions

[Caodemarte]

What can be meant by the statements that temperature creates matter, like comets?

ActuallyI think I said temperature makes the matter in comets, not comets.
Comets are only concept. However the trillions and zillions of kalapas that make up what we call a comet are real. Kalapas in non living matter are always an octet of the 4 mahabhutarupas and 4 other rupas. Kalapas last only an infinitely short time, but may rearise continually if there are sufficient conditions

I am sorry, but this (both comet and commentary related explanations) does not make a lot of sense to me and does not sound like a plausible interpretation. However, I have been wrong before and will leave you all to it.

[zan]

What can be meant by the statements that temperature creates matter, like comets?

ActuallyI think I said temperature makes the matter in comets, not comets.
Comets are only concept. However the trillions and zillions of kalapas that make up what we call a comet are real. Kalapas in non living matter are always an octet of the 4 mahabhutarupas and 4 other rupas. Kalapas last only an infinitely short time, but may rearise continually if there are sufficient conditions

I am sorry, but this (both comet and commentary related explanations) does not make a lot of sense to me and does not sound like a plausible interpretation. However, I have been wrong before and will leave you all to it.

robertk is explaining the Abhidhamma/commentary explanation of matter exactly as found in said works.

[zan]

Please explain what you mean by volition?

It seems the sutta is speaking about sankharas, which the Venerable translates in said sutta as "volitional formations", however in his note he is speaking about cetana.The selection from SN 22.79 in question is speaking about sakharas. However Bhikkhu Bodhi in his note to the selection is speaking about cetana and also cetana's role as kamma.



SN 22.79:

And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.[112] And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha? Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati. Kiñca saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti? Rūpaṃ rūpattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, vedanaṃ vedanattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saññaṃ saññattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, saṅkhāre saṅkhārattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti, viññāṇaṃ viññāṇattāya saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ronti. Saṅ­kha­ta­mabhi­saṅ­kha­ron­tīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati

Bhikkhu Bodhi's note 112:

...This passage shows the active role of cetana, volition, in constructing experienced reality. Not only does volition influence the objective content of the experience, but it also shapes the psychophysical organism within which it has arisen and, via its role as kamma, shapes the future configurations of the five aggregates to be produced by kamma.

So it sounds like cetana, which is being equated with the sankharas which are here translated as "volitional formations" is being said to be able to create matter here and now because the Venerable speaks in present tense:

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Not only does volition influence the objective content of experience, but it also shapes the psychophysical organism

until he mentions its effects on the future:

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

via its role as kamma, shapes the future configurations

It sounds like he is saying that it can create objects because he says it can "influence the objective content of experience".

It sounds like volition is creating the matter here and now being experienced by the aggregates. A complete, self sufficient circuit. So form in the five aggregates is being produced by the aggregate of cetana:

SN 22.79:

They construct conditioned form as form

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

shapes the psychophysical organism in which it has arisen

and at least some of the objects of the feelings and perceptions that are the other aggregates could come from cetana as well since it can

Bhikkhu Bodhi:

influence the objective content of experience

So from this it seems like cetana could make one immortal and able to create matter which would allow any being to be considered a self and potentially a god at that. The only limitations would be dealing with temperature born and nutriment born matter and the cetana of other beings who are also creating matter. Everything else would be possible to be controlled and generated by cetana forever, without ceasing.

[Caodemarte]

I am sorry, but this (both comet and commentary related explanations) does not make a lot of sense to me and does not sound like a plausible interpretation. However, I have been wrong before and will leave you all to it.

robertk is explaining the Abhidhamma/commentary explanation of matter exactly as found in said works.

Since I was qouted, I was automatically notified of Zan's comment. I hope what I said did not sound rude. It was meant as a simple statement. The explanations offered do not make sense to me as they seem to contradict what I think I understand of Buddhist teachings (for examples, the references to theoretical immortality) or comets! Now it is clear that I do not fully understand Buddhist teachings or comets. I may not understand what the explanations offered here are trying to say. Either way I do not understand and so this all makes little sense to me. So I will leave those who think they do understand to carry on. It is not meant to be offensive.

[zan]

I am sorry, but this (both comet and commentary related explanations) does not make a lot of sense to me and does not sound like a plausible interpretation. However, I have been wrong before and will leave you all to it.

robertk is explaining the Abhidhamma/commentary explanation of matter exactly as found in said works.

Since I was qouted, I was automatically notified of Zan's comment. I hope what I said did not sound rude. It was meant as a simple statement. The explanations offered do not make sense to me as they seem to contradict what I think I understand of Buddhist teachings (for examples, the references to theoretical immortality) or comets! Now it is clear that I do not fully understand Buddhist teachings or comets. I may not understand what the explanations offered here are trying to say. Either way I do not understand and so this all makes little sense to me. So I will leave those who think they do understand to carry on. It is not meant to be offensive.

No worries. I didn't think you were being offensive. I was just clarifying for you what robertk was explaining.