Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by budo » Wed May 30, 2018 9:51 pm

To me the Cunda Sutta is saying:

Arahant = Delights in Nibbana

Non-returner = Knows Nibanna (Perhaps knows Nibbana is on the horizon/verge/around the corner)?

Stream-Winner/Once-Returner = Lives on the path

Fool = fake monk


According to wikipedia
The sotāpanna is said to attain an intuitive grasp of the dharma,[8] this wisdom being called right view (sammā diṭṭhi)[9] and has unshakable confidence in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, sometimes taken to be the triple refuge, are at other times listed as being objects of recollection.[10] In general though, confirmed confidence in the Buddha', Dharma and Sangha, respectively, is considered to be one of the four limbs of stream-winning (sotāpannassa angāni).[11][12] The sotapanna is said to have "opened the eye of the Dhamma" (dhammacakka), because they have realized that whatever arises will cease (impermanence).[13] Their conviction in the true dharma would be unshakable.[14]

They have had their first glimpse of the unconditioned element, the asankhata,[15] in which they see the goal, in the moment of the fruition of their path (magga-phala). Whereas the stream-entrant has seen nibbāna and, thus has verified confidence in it, the arahant[16] can drink fully of its waters, so to speak, to use a simile from the Kosambi Sutta (SN 12.68) — of a "well", encountered along a desert road. [17] The sotapanna "may state this about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'".[18]

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:03 am

how can one go beyond doubt to know and see The Noble Truth without seeing it? by reasoning, by conviction, by logical deduction, by intellectual conjecture, taking someone's word for it? How can a person not have any doubt about The Third Noble Truth without direct experience?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 10:05 am

Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' Kalama Sutta
1. Ma anussavena:
Don’t accept and believe something to be true just because it has been passed along and retold for many years. Such credulity is a characteristic of brainless people, of "sawdust brains," such as those in Bangkok who once believed that disasters would befall people born in the "ma" years. (The years of the small snake, big snake, horse, and goat — five through eight in the old twelve-year Thai cycle — all begin with "ma.")

2. Ma paramparaya:
Don’t believe in something merely because it has become a traditional practice. People tend to imitate what others do and then pass the habit along, as in the story of the rabbit that was terrified by a fallen mango (like Chicken Little’s falling sky). When the other animals saw the rabbit running at top speed, they were frightened too and ran after it. Most of them ended up tripping and tumbling off a cliff to their deaths. Any vipassana (insight) practice that merely imitates others, that just follows traditions, will bring similar results.

3. Ma itikiraya:
Don’t accept and believe something simply because of reports and news of it spreading far and wide, whether through one’s village or throughout the whole world. Only fools are susceptible to such rumors, for they refuse to exercise their own powers of intelligence and discrimination.

4. Ma Pitakasampadanena:
Don’t accept and believe something just because it is cited in a pitaka (text). The word "pitaka," although most commonly used for Buddhist scriptures, can mean anything written or inscribed on a suitable writing material. The teachings memorized and passed on orally should not be confused with pitaka. A pitaka is a certain kind of conditioned thing made and controlled by human beings, which can be improved or changed by human hands. Thus, we cannot trust every letter and word we read in them. We need to use our powers of discrimination to see how these words can be applied to the quenching of suffering. There are discrepancies among the pitaka of the various Buddhist schools, so care is called for.

5. Ma takkahetu:
Don’t believe something solely on the grounds of logical reasoning (takka). Logic is merely one branch of knowledge that people use to try to figure out the truth. Takka or Logic is not infallible. If its data or inferences are incorrect, it can go wrong.

6. Ma nayahetu:
Don’t believe or accept something merely because it appears correct on the grounds of Naya or what is now called "philosophy." In Thailand, we translate the Western term philosophy as prajna. Our Indian friends cannot accept this because "naya" is just a point of view or opinion; it isn’t the supreme understanding properly referred to as panya or prajna. Naya or nayaya is merely a method of deductive reasoning based on hypotheses or assumptions. Such reasoning can err when the method or hypothesis is inappropriate.

7. Ma akaraparivitakkena:
Don’t believe or accept something simply because of superficial thinking, that is, because it appeals to what we nowadays call "common sense," which is merely snap judgments based on one’s tendencies of thought. We like to use this approach so much that it becomes habitual. Some careless and boastful philosophers rely on such common sense a great deal and consider themselves clever.

8. Ma ditthinijjhanakkhantiya:
Don’t believe accept something to be true merely because it agrees or fits with one’s preconceived opinions and theories. Personal views can be wrong and our methods of experiment and verification may be inadequate, neither of which lead us to the truth. This approach may seem similar to the scientific method, but can never actually be scientific, as its proofs and experiments are inadequate.

9. Ma bhabbarupataya:
Don’t believe something just because the speaker appears believable, perhaps due to creditability or prestige. Outside appearances and the actual knowledge inside a person can never be identical. We often find that speakers who appear creditable outwardly turn out to say incorrect and foolish things. Nowadays, we must be wary of computers because the programmers who feed them data and manipulate them may put in the wrong information, make programming errors, or use them incorrectly. Don’t worship computers so much, for doing so goes against this principle of the Kalama Sutta.

10. Ma samano no garu ti:
Don’t believe something simply because the monk (more broadly, any speaker) is "my teacher." The Buddha’s purpose regarding this important point is that nobody should be the intellectual slave of anybody else, not even the Buddha Himself. The Buddha emphasized this point often, and there were disciples, such as the Venerable Sariputta, who confirmed it in practice. They didn’t believe the Buddha’s words immediately upon hearing them; they only did so after reasoned reflection and the test of practice. See for yourselves whether there is any other religious teacher in the world who has given this highest freedom to his disciples and listeners! In Buddhism there is no dogmatic system that pressures us to believe without the right to examine and decide for ourselves. This is the greatest uniqueness of Buddhism that keeps its practitioners from being anybody’s intellectual slave. We Thais should never volunteer to follow the West as slavishly as we are doing now. Intellectual and spiritual freedom is best.


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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am

More like Right View is precursor to other path factors which when developed lead to direct realization of the Noble Truths;
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
I recommend practicing the Four Satipatthana for the direct experience and the Noble Attainment;
The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:00 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
More like Right View is precursor to other path factors which when developed lead to direct realization of the Noble Truths
This?
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, wrong view is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong view as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right view as their condition go to the culmination of their development. In one of right resolve, wrong resolve is abolished... In one of right speech, wrong speech is abolished... In one of right action, wrong action is abolished... In one of right livelihood, wrong livelihood is abolished... In one of right effort, wrong effort is abolished... In one of right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is abolished... In one of right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished... In one of right knowledge, wrong knowledge is abolished... In one of right release, wrong release is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong release as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right release as their condition go to the culmination of their development.

MN 117
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
What does "wandered on for seven more times at most" mean? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am
he/she wont take an 8th birth
Is this "she" or "he" as "self"? Does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self"? If a stream-enterer has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th birth, does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self" in those births? :shrug:

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am
he/she wont take an 8th birth
Is this "she" or "he" as "self"? Does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self"? If a stream-enterer has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th birth, does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self" in those births? :shrug:
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering
Of course it is a serious question. :geek:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
(SN. ii. 185-6)
To add: there is no merit in quoting suttas as above. It is best to conform with what others do. Thanks

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering
Of course it is a serious question. :geek:
is that a lie?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:13 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:09 am
is that a lie?
If the assertion made about seven births is not explained in a provable manner, it sounds like a "lie", at least to me.

Also, as was truthfully suggested, it is best to reference suttas with the standard SN 15.10 and include the link. Thanks If you ever become a monk, little idiosyncrasies that are clinging must be abandoned. Monkhood is conformity. :smile:

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:13 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:09 am
is that a lie?
If the assertion made about seven births is not explained in a provable manner, it sounds like a "lie", at least to me.

Also, as was truthfully suggested, it is best to reference suttas with the standard SN 15.10 and include the link. Thanks If you ever become a monk, little idiosyncrasies that are clinging must be abandoned. :smile:
no i mean did you lie about it being a serious question?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:18 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:16 am
no i mean did you lie about it being a serious question?
The suttas have many examples of Dhamma discussion, where a monk is questioned by another monk, including questioned by the Buddha. Obviously, when a Buddha questions a young monk, a Buddha is not seeking a teacher but testing the young monk out of compassion; similar to how a father may question a son out of love or welfare. The question asked was a standard Buddhist mode of behaviour. Thanks

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:18 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:16 am
no i mean did you lie about it being a serious question?
The suttas have many examples of Dhamma discussion, where a monk is questioned by another monk, including questioned by the Buddha. Obviously, when a Buddha questions a young monk, a Buddha is not seeking a teacher but testing the young monk. The question asked was a standard Buddhist mode of behaviour. Thanks
to me it is clear that you lied and now trying to conceal it, denying what you have done.
I won't quote Sutta references about people who do such things for it would be against ToS.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:23 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:20 am
to me it is clear that you lied and now trying to conceal it.
I won't quote Sutta references about people who do such things for it would be against ToS.
In MN 61 it is said a deliberate liar is the most evil person. To accuse a Buddhist a liar is a grave charge. As a monk, very serious.

:focus: Please substantiate the claims made about the seven births.

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