SN 13.1
In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater.
SN 13.1
SN 13.1
In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater.
SN 13.1
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."
"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."
MN 44
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"
"Yes, my friend, I have..."
A very important text, showing that the Arising of the Dhamma-Eye is the Attainment of the Deathless.2600htz wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 pm Hello:
Maybe this is enough, from the Mahavagga — Mv I.23.5:
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"
"Yes, my friend, I have..."
Regards.
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:
The suttas suggest a stream enterer has only an intellectual understanding of nibbana and not a direct experience of it. That would also be technically impossible, since a stream enterer can not even experience jhana let alone such a state as nibbana. There is even a sutta where a stream enterer is asked about this and here is what he answered:Dhammanando wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 amIt’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended."
Small.?How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
Hello Bhante,Dhammanando wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 amIt’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it. - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
15 stages of insight ? I've never heard of this concept. It was not taught by the historical Buddha. It is not part of his dhamma.robertk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:22 pmSmall.?How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
He has already directly known Nama- rupaparichedda nana, something that is due to extraordinary level of understanding. And then a further 15 stages of insight.
None of this is related to skill in jhana.
Circle5 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm Not to mention that since he can not even dwell in a state that still has defilements such as jhana, how could he possibly be capable of experiencing a state of no defilement whatsoever, much higher than any of the jhanas ? How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
The sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.htmlUser1249x wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
Yes you are right about this, shouldve checked it better.Circle5 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:45 pmThe sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.htmlUser1249x wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
Check out what those pleasant mental abidings he is speaking about are. He isn't speaking about jhana but about the confidence that the stream enterer has in the buddha, the dhamma, the shanga + the virtue that he has.