Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:12 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 am
atttaining the deathless = arahantship

arising of the dhamma eye = stream entry - something that usually took a couple of days to do for people in the suttas. Though we even have a serial killer that attained it after just a couple of hours of listening to the Buddha explaining the higher dhamma to him
refutation;
Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
Later he recited the stanza to Moggallana and he also got the attainment;
Then to Moggallana the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
They eventually went to receive ordinations the Buddha;
the two friends arrived at the Bamboo Grove Monastery.

There the Master, seated among the fourfold assembly[3] was preaching the Dhamma, and when the Blessed One saw the two coming he addressed the monks: "These two friends, Upatissa and Kolita, who are now coming, will be two excellent disciples to me, a blessed pair."

Having approached, the friends saluted the Blessed One reverentially and sat down at one side. When they were seated they spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "May we obtain, O Lord, the ordination of the Going Forth under the Blessed One, may we obtain the Higher Ordination!"

And the Blessed One said: "Come, O bhikkhus! Well proclaimed is the Dhamma. Now live the Life of Purity, to make an end of suffering!" This alone served as the ordination of these venerable ones.

Then the master continued his sermon, taking the individual temperaments[4] of the listeners into consideration; and with the exception of the two chief disciples all of them attained to Arahatship. But the two chief disciples had not yet completed the task of attaining to the three higher paths of sanctity. The reason for this was the greatness of the "knowledge pertaining to the perfection of a disciple" (savakaparami-ñana), which they had still to reach.

Upatissa received the name of Sariputta on becoming a disciple of the Buddha, while Kolita became known as Maha Moggallana.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 90.html#ii
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Image
Snp.1.5
Not sure how good of a translation this is.
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 pm

That's an interesting sutta, but it seems to me that the Buddha is talking about full awakening there. He lists five possibilities

Here's the Pali: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/pli/ms#4
Mills' translation: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/en/mills#sc4

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“There are four kinds of ascetics; there is no fifth,
(Cunda,” said the Blessed One).
“Being asked in person, let me explain them to you:
the conqueror of the path, the teacher of the path,
the one who lives on the path, and the defiler of the path
.”

“Whom do the buddhas call a conqueror of the path?”
(said Cunda the smith’s son).
“How is one without equal as a shower of the path?
Being asked, tell me about one who lives on the path,
and explain to me the defiler of the path.”

“One who has crossed over perplexity, free of inner darts,
delighted with nibbāna, without any greed;
the guide of this world together with its devas
:
the buddhas call the impartial one a conqueror of the path.
:heart:
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 8:30 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 pm
That's an interesting sutta, but it seems to me that the Buddha is talking about full awakening there. He lists five possibilities

Here's the Pali: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/pli/ms#4
Mills' translation: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/en/mills#sc4

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“There are four kinds of ascetics; there is no fifth,
(Cunda,” said the Blessed One).
“Being asked in person, let me explain them to you:
the conqueror of the path, the teacher of the path,
the one who lives on the path, and the defiler of the path
.”

“Whom do the buddhas call a conqueror of the path?”
(said Cunda the smith’s son).
“How is one without equal as a shower of the path?
Being asked, tell me about one who lives on the path,
and explain to me the defiler of the path.”

“One who has crossed over perplexity, free of inner darts,
delighted with nibbāna, without any greed;
the guide of this world together with its devas
:
the buddhas call the impartial one a conqueror of the path.
:heart:
Mike
Yes it is hard to make sense of it and it is probably not Sotapanna i agree having looked at some more translations.

On this topic tho i find that evidence and argumentation is very one-sided.
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by SarathW » Wed May 30, 2018 9:11 pm

I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna
The way I understand, realising final Nibbana is similar to a sick person is getting cured of a long lasted sickness.
You gradually experience how you getting back to normal.
It is like a person who is going on a 100 miles journey. When he completed 99 miles he knows that he has to complete only one more mile.
Without seen Nibbana, it is not possible to walk on the path. It is like a person who tries to walk on to a destination without knowing where he is going.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by budo » Wed May 30, 2018 9:51 pm

To me the Cunda Sutta is saying:

Arahant = Delights in Nibbana

Non-returner = Knows Nibanna (Perhaps knows Nibbana is on the horizon/verge/around the corner)?

Stream-Winner/Once-Returner = Lives on the path

Fool = fake monk


According to wikipedia
The sotāpanna is said to attain an intuitive grasp of the dharma,[8] this wisdom being called right view (sammā diṭṭhi)[9] and has unshakable confidence in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. The Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, sometimes taken to be the triple refuge, are at other times listed as being objects of recollection.[10] In general though, confirmed confidence in the Buddha', Dharma and Sangha, respectively, is considered to be one of the four limbs of stream-winning (sotāpannassa angāni).[11][12] The sotapanna is said to have "opened the eye of the Dhamma" (dhammacakka), because they have realized that whatever arises will cease (impermanence).[13] Their conviction in the true dharma would be unshakable.[14]

They have had their first glimpse of the unconditioned element, the asankhata,[15] in which they see the goal, in the moment of the fruition of their path (magga-phala). Whereas the stream-entrant has seen nibbāna and, thus has verified confidence in it, the arahant[16] can drink fully of its waters, so to speak, to use a simile from the Kosambi Sutta (SN 12.68) — of a "well", encountered along a desert road. [17] The sotapanna "may state this about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'".[18]

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:03 am

how can one go beyond doubt to know and see The Noble Truth without seeing it? by reasoning, by conviction, by logical deduction, by intellectual conjecture, taking someone's word for it? How can a person not have any doubt about The Third Noble Truth without direct experience?
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 10:05 am

Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' Kalama Sutta
1. Ma anussavena:
Don’t accept and believe something to be true just because it has been passed along and retold for many years. Such credulity is a characteristic of brainless people, of "sawdust brains," such as those in Bangkok who once believed that disasters would befall people born in the "ma" years. (The years of the small snake, big snake, horse, and goat — five through eight in the old twelve-year Thai cycle — all begin with "ma.")

2. Ma paramparaya:
Don’t believe in something merely because it has become a traditional practice. People tend to imitate what others do and then pass the habit along, as in the story of the rabbit that was terrified by a fallen mango (like Chicken Little’s falling sky). When the other animals saw the rabbit running at top speed, they were frightened too and ran after it. Most of them ended up tripping and tumbling off a cliff to their deaths. Any vipassana (insight) practice that merely imitates others, that just follows traditions, will bring similar results.

3. Ma itikiraya:
Don’t accept and believe something simply because of reports and news of it spreading far and wide, whether through one’s village or throughout the whole world. Only fools are susceptible to such rumors, for they refuse to exercise their own powers of intelligence and discrimination.

4. Ma Pitakasampadanena:
Don’t accept and believe something just because it is cited in a pitaka (text). The word "pitaka," although most commonly used for Buddhist scriptures, can mean anything written or inscribed on a suitable writing material. The teachings memorized and passed on orally should not be confused with pitaka. A pitaka is a certain kind of conditioned thing made and controlled by human beings, which can be improved or changed by human hands. Thus, we cannot trust every letter and word we read in them. We need to use our powers of discrimination to see how these words can be applied to the quenching of suffering. There are discrepancies among the pitaka of the various Buddhist schools, so care is called for.

5. Ma takkahetu:
Don’t believe something solely on the grounds of logical reasoning (takka). Logic is merely one branch of knowledge that people use to try to figure out the truth. Takka or Logic is not infallible. If its data or inferences are incorrect, it can go wrong.

6. Ma nayahetu:
Don’t believe or accept something merely because it appears correct on the grounds of Naya or what is now called "philosophy." In Thailand, we translate the Western term philosophy as prajna. Our Indian friends cannot accept this because "naya" is just a point of view or opinion; it isn’t the supreme understanding properly referred to as panya or prajna. Naya or nayaya is merely a method of deductive reasoning based on hypotheses or assumptions. Such reasoning can err when the method or hypothesis is inappropriate.

7. Ma akaraparivitakkena:
Don’t believe or accept something simply because of superficial thinking, that is, because it appeals to what we nowadays call "common sense," which is merely snap judgments based on one’s tendencies of thought. We like to use this approach so much that it becomes habitual. Some careless and boastful philosophers rely on such common sense a great deal and consider themselves clever.

8. Ma ditthinijjhanakkhantiya:
Don’t believe accept something to be true merely because it agrees or fits with one’s preconceived opinions and theories. Personal views can be wrong and our methods of experiment and verification may be inadequate, neither of which lead us to the truth. This approach may seem similar to the scientific method, but can never actually be scientific, as its proofs and experiments are inadequate.

9. Ma bhabbarupataya:
Don’t believe something just because the speaker appears believable, perhaps due to creditability or prestige. Outside appearances and the actual knowledge inside a person can never be identical. We often find that speakers who appear creditable outwardly turn out to say incorrect and foolish things. Nowadays, we must be wary of computers because the programmers who feed them data and manipulate them may put in the wrong information, make programming errors, or use them incorrectly. Don’t worship computers so much, for doing so goes against this principle of the Kalama Sutta.

10. Ma samano no garu ti:
Don’t believe something simply because the monk (more broadly, any speaker) is "my teacher." The Buddha’s purpose regarding this important point is that nobody should be the intellectual slave of anybody else, not even the Buddha Himself. The Buddha emphasized this point often, and there were disciples, such as the Venerable Sariputta, who confirmed it in practice. They didn’t believe the Buddha’s words immediately upon hearing them; they only did so after reasoned reflection and the test of practice. See for yourselves whether there is any other religious teacher in the world who has given this highest freedom to his disciples and listeners! In Buddhism there is no dogmatic system that pressures us to believe without the right to examine and decide for ourselves. This is the greatest uniqueness of Buddhism that keeps its practitioners from being anybody’s intellectual slave. We Thais should never volunteer to follow the West as slavishly as we are doing now. Intellectual and spiritual freedom is best.


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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am

More like Right View is precursor to other path factors which when developed lead to direct realization of the Noble Truths;
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
I recommend practicing the Four Satipatthana for the direct experience and the Noble Attainment;
The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:00 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
More like Right View is precursor to other path factors which when developed lead to direct realization of the Noble Truths
This?
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, wrong view is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong view as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right view as their condition go to the culmination of their development. In one of right resolve, wrong resolve is abolished... In one of right speech, wrong speech is abolished... In one of right action, wrong action is abolished... In one of right livelihood, wrong livelihood is abolished... In one of right effort, wrong effort is abolished... In one of right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is abolished... In one of right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished... In one of right knowledge, wrong knowledge is abolished... In one of right release, wrong release is abolished. The many evil, unskillful qualities that come into play with wrong release as their condition are also abolished, while the many skillful qualities that have right release as their condition go to the culmination of their development.

MN 117
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
What does "wandered on for seven more times at most" mean? :shrug:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:00 am
What does "wandered on for seven more times at most" mean? :shrug:
he/she wont take an 8th birth
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am
he/she wont take an 8th birth
Is this "she" or "he" as "self"? Does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self"? If a stream-enterer has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th birth, does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self" in those births? :shrug:

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 am
he/she wont take an 8th birth
Is this "she" or "he" as "self"? Does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self"? If a stream-enterer has a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th birth, does the stream-enterer believe they are a "self" in those births? :shrug:
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering
Of course it is a serious question. :geek:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
(SN. ii. 185-6)
To add: there is no merit in quoting suttas as above. It is best to conform with what others do. Thanks

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:06 am
Not sure if you are serious or trolling so i won't bother answering
Of course it is a serious question. :geek:
is that a lie?
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