Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

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Circle5
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:49 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:22 pm
How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
Small.?
He has already directly known Nama- rupaparichedda nana, something that is due to extraordinary level of understanding. And then a further 15 stages of insight.

None of this is related to skill in jhana.
15 stages of insight ? I've never heard of this concept. It was not taught by the historical Buddha. It is not part of his dhamma.

Indeed the level of development is not small in general, but it is small in terms of experience of wholesome states that are not tainted by craving. How could one experience the supreme state, unbinding, that comes after the 8th step of the noble 8thfold path, when one has not even started developing the 8th step of the 8thfold path ?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm
Not to mention that since he can not even dwell in a state that still has defilements such as jhana, how could he possibly be capable of experiencing a state of no defilement whatsoever, much higher than any of the jhanas ? How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

Circle5
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
The sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Check out what those pleasant mental abidings he is speaking about are. He isn't speaking about jhana but about the confidence that the stream enterer has in the buddha, the dhamma, the shanga + the virtue that he has.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:58 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
The sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Check out what those pleasant mental abidings he is speaking about are. He isn't speaking about jhana but about the confidence that the stream enterer has in the buddha, the dhamma, the shanga + the virtue that he has.
Yes you are right about this, shouldve checked it better.

However both Sariputta, Mogalanna as well as the 5 ascetics had attained Jhanas before attainment of Stream-Entry?
How do you interperet the Viññana Sutta: Consciousness and what constitutes the 8 Noble Individuals?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:30 pm

We see in the suttas hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry. Those that were ascetics prior to hearing the dhamma discovered by the Buddha (and they might also have attained jhana) become non-returners or arahants on the spot. Those that were lay followers normally become stream enterers. As as matter of fact, I don't think there is a single case of a random lay person attaining anything higher than stream entry after hearing the dhamma. Which is something normal.


Circle5
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Well, the 8 individuals means the 4 that have achieved that milestone and the 4 that are striving towards it. And the faith-follower and dhamma-follower are the ones striving to become a stream enterer. All that is left to do for them is to really understand how things work. We see in the suttas that such people have gone home after having a discussion with the Buddha, then have contemplated and contemplated for some time the different conditionalities that exist between the 5 aggregates and at one point they have really understood them in detail.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:04 am

What do you mean by milestone?
So you think that attaining the deathless and arising of the dhamma eye refers to intellectual understanding? Why would they use such words to talk about intellectual understanding? Do you reject the Abhidhamma explaination of path and fruit as well?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 am

atttaining the deathless = arahantship

arising of the dhamma eye = stream entry - something that usually took a couple of days to do for people in the suttas. Though we even have a serial killer that attained it after just a couple of hours of listening to the Buddha explaining the higher dhamma to him

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:22 am

overnight success isn't what it seems

time of preparing is unseen

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:12 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 am
atttaining the deathless = arahantship

arising of the dhamma eye = stream entry - something that usually took a couple of days to do for people in the suttas. Though we even have a serial killer that attained it after just a couple of hours of listening to the Buddha explaining the higher dhamma to him
refutation;
Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
& their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
Later he recited the stanza to Moggallana and he also got the attainment;
Then to Moggallana the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
They eventually went to receive ordinations the Buddha;
the two friends arrived at the Bamboo Grove Monastery.

There the Master, seated among the fourfold assembly[3] was preaching the Dhamma, and when the Blessed One saw the two coming he addressed the monks: "These two friends, Upatissa and Kolita, who are now coming, will be two excellent disciples to me, a blessed pair."

Having approached, the friends saluted the Blessed One reverentially and sat down at one side. When they were seated they spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "May we obtain, O Lord, the ordination of the Going Forth under the Blessed One, may we obtain the Higher Ordination!"

And the Blessed One said: "Come, O bhikkhus! Well proclaimed is the Dhamma. Now live the Life of Purity, to make an end of suffering!" This alone served as the ordination of these venerable ones.

Then the master continued his sermon, taking the individual temperaments[4] of the listeners into consideration; and with the exception of the two chief disciples all of them attained to Arahatship. But the two chief disciples had not yet completed the task of attaining to the three higher paths of sanctity. The reason for this was the greatness of the "knowledge pertaining to the perfection of a disciple" (savakaparami-ñana), which they had still to reach.

Upatissa received the name of Sariputta on becoming a disciple of the Buddha, while Kolita became known as Maha Moggallana.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 90.html#ii


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mikenz66
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 pm

That's an interesting sutta, but it seems to me that the Buddha is talking about full awakening there. He lists five possibilities

Here's the Pali: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/pli/ms#4
Mills' translation: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/en/mills#sc4

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“There are four kinds of ascetics; there is no fifth,
(Cunda,” said the Blessed One).
“Being asked in person, let me explain them to you:
the conqueror of the path, the teacher of the path,
the one who lives on the path, and the defiler of the path
.”

“Whom do the buddhas call a conqueror of the path?”
(said Cunda the smith’s son).
“How is one without equal as a shower of the path?
Being asked, tell me about one who lives on the path,
and explain to me the defiler of the path.”

“One who has crossed over perplexity, free of inner darts,
delighted with nibbāna, without any greed;
the guide of this world together with its devas
:
the buddhas call the impartial one a conqueror of the path.
:heart:
Mike

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed May 30, 2018 8:30 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 pm
That's an interesting sutta, but it seems to me that the Buddha is talking about full awakening there. He lists five possibilities

Here's the Pali: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/pli/ms#4
Mills' translation: https://suttacentral.net/snp1.5/en/mills#sc4

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“There are four kinds of ascetics; there is no fifth,
(Cunda,” said the Blessed One).
“Being asked in person, let me explain them to you:
the conqueror of the path, the teacher of the path,
the one who lives on the path, and the defiler of the path
.”

“Whom do the buddhas call a conqueror of the path?”
(said Cunda the smith’s son).
“How is one without equal as a shower of the path?
Being asked, tell me about one who lives on the path,
and explain to me the defiler of the path.”

“One who has crossed over perplexity, free of inner darts,
delighted with nibbāna, without any greed;
the guide of this world together with its devas
:
the buddhas call the impartial one a conqueror of the path.
:heart:
Mike
Yes it is hard to make sense of it and it is probably not Sotapanna i agree having looked at some more translations.

On this topic tho i find that evidence and argumentation is very one-sided.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by SarathW » Wed May 30, 2018 9:11 pm

I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna
The way I understand, realising final Nibbana is similar to a sick person is getting cured of a long lasted sickness.
You gradually experience how you getting back to normal.
It is like a person who is going on a 100 miles journey. When he completed 99 miles he knows that he has to complete only one more mile.
Without seen Nibbana, it is not possible to walk on the path. It is like a person who tries to walk on to a destination without knowing where he is going.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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