Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

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dylanj
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Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by dylanj » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:01 am

From what I have gathered there are two aspects to the attainment of stream-entry...Sotāpattimagga & Sotāpattiphala, the path & fruit. Of these, & similarly with other noble states, which is it that is impossible to fall back from? Which occurs along with the abandoning of the three lower fetters? What is the distinction? How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense? As much clarification as possible is appreciated, I have wondered about this for sometime & as such can't recollect all of my questions & confusions regarding the issue.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

santa100
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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by santa100 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:38 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense?
I'm not a Sotapanna and so won't be able to provide any info. in an "experiential" sense. But some conceptual info. from Ven. Bodhi's "Eightfold Path" might be useful:
8NP wrote:Insofar as they bind us to the round of becoming, the defilements are classified into a set of ten "fetters" (samyojana) as follows: (1) personality view, (2) doubt, (3) clinging to rules and rituals, (4) sensual desire, (5) aversion, (6) desire for fine-material existence, (7) desire for immaterial existence, (8) conceit, (9) restlessness, and (10) ignorance. The four supramundane paths each eliminate a certain layer of defilements. The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga), cuts off the first three fetters, the coarsest of the set, eliminates them so they can never arise again. "Personality view" (sakkaya-ditthi), the view of a truly existent self in the five aggregates, is cut off since one sees the selfless nature of all phenomena. Doubt is eliminated because one has grasped the truth proclaimed by the Buddha, seen it for oneself, and so can never again hang back due to uncertainty. And clinging to rules and rites is removed since one knows that deliverance can be won only through the practice of the Eightfold Path, not through rigid moralism or ceremonial observances.

The path is followed immediately by another state of supramundane consciousness known as the fruit (phala), which results from the path's work of cutting off defilements. Each path is followed by its own fruit, wherein for a few moments the mind enjoys the blissful peace of Nibbana before descending again to the level of mundane consciousness. The first fruit is the fruit of stream-entry, and a person who has gone through the experience of this fruit becomes a "stream-enterer" (sotapanna). He has entered the stream of the Dhamma carrying him to final deliverance. He is bound for liberation and can no longer fall back into the ways of an unenlightened worldling. He still has certain defilements remaining in his mental makeup, and it may take him as long as seven more lives to arrive at the final goal, but he has acquired the essential realization needed to reach it, and there is no way he can fall away.

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by SarathW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:42 am

Each path is followed by its own fruit, wherein for a few moments the mind enjoys the blissful peace of Nibbana before descending again to the level of mundane consciousness.
You attain the path only once and all subsequent mind moments are fruits.
It is important to note that there are few kinds of Sotapanna and Anagamis.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

perkele
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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by perkele » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:13 am

Hello maranadhammomhi!

I share your curiosity and have asked the very same questions recently, mainly triggred by this and this previous thread here.
I asked about these points in most detail in a German buddhist forum because the topic had come up in passing between two members there, and I received some partial and mostly speculative (or experiential but not theoretically clarified) answers.
A monk picked up and answered my questions here and here on this other forum/virtual monastery in some more definite partial detail (also in German).

I have still not gotten back to either of them. I am glad that you ask these questions here now in such precision so that I can try and gather, clarify (for myself) and share what answers I have received so far.
maranadhammomhi wrote:Of these, & similarly with other noble states, which is it that is impossible to fall back from?
It is my understanding that it is impossible to fall away from either. Once attained the path it is impossible to fall away from it, and one will attain the fruit at the latest at the end of the current lifetime (backed up by this sutta).
(I had misunderstood this message by Ven. Pesala here previously and misinterpreted it as meaning that one could still fall off from the path - which was the reason that I expressed my perplexion here and on the German buddhist forum. But actually Ven. Pesala had clearly said only that "One developing the path leading to Stream-winning could fall-back." - But one developing the path is of course different from someone who has attained the path. Just mentioning this so longwinded here in case you might have had similar confusions.)
maranadhammomhi wrote:Which occurs along with the abandoning of the three lower fetters?
It is my understanding that abandoning (or weakening, in the case of sakadagami) of fetters occurs only with fruition (phala). (According to what German (and Austrian) buddhists have said, and what I think I have also read previously at some point in the suttas.)
maranadhammomhi wrote:What is the distinction? How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense?
According to a German buddhist and ex-monk here, the path moment is characterized by a clear comprehension/experience of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta - or maybe only one of them), whereas the fruition moment is characterized by elimination of fetters.
However, I believe his understanding is not accurate, and he only related his experience and what he interpreted as magga and phala respectively, without knowing the clear definition and distinction.

According to this answer here by Ven. Johann (previously known as Hanzze or _hanzze in this forum, when he was still a layman) the path moment is "triggered" by some "complete coming together of all the path factors", which may occur most commonly while hearing the Dhamma and listening with appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) and "having laid down the rod" (i.e. being humble(d) and respectful, and thus really receptive at that moment), if I understand correctly. And the fruition moment (at which the fetters are destroyed [or weakened in the case of sakadagami]) can occur directly afterwards or at some later point (at the latest at the moment of death) when there is strong and clear enough mindfulness and concentration to comprehend the three characteristics in full depth.

I believe, the above-quoted (by santa100) explanation by Bhikkhu Bohdhi (and others who claim that path and fruition must always occur directly after another without delay, or even equate the two)
8NP wrote:The four supramundane paths each eliminate a certain layer of defilements. The first, the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga), cuts off the first three fetters, the coarsest of the set, eliminates them so they can never arise again.
is in so far inaccurate that the wasting away of fetters occurs only at the moment of fruition. I believe I have read this explicitly in the suttas, but I don't know the reference now. And, as previously mentioned there is sutta support for the case that the fruition moment occurs delayed in relation to the path moment up until to the moment of death.

:anjali:

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:57 am

Distinction between Phala and Magga is that Magga exists in context of Samsara and 5 Aggregates, while Phala is cessation of conventional reality (Aggregates) and is thus not experienced by a person. What exists for the person is knowledge of Magga and Phala.

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by 2600htz » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:43 pm

SarathW wrote:
Each path is followed by its own fruit, wherein for a few moments the mind enjoys the blissful peace of Nibbana before descending again to the level of mundane consciousness.
You attain the path only once and all subsequent mind moments are fruits.
It is important to note that there are few kinds of Sotapanna and Anagamis.

Hello:

If all subsequent mind moments are the fruit, why in the suttas they talk about "the 8 kinds of individuals" ? (AN 5.179).
Or why they talk about "stream-winners & those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry"? (Ud 5.5).

Regards.

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by SarathW » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:42 am

There are:
Sotapanna fruit, Sakdhagame fruit, Anagami fruit and Arahant fruit etc.
Even if you observe the five precepts you immediately experience the fruits.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by Maarten » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:26 pm

I can't quote any resources, but as I understand it there are special experiences that can occur as a result of the practice. In those experiences you learn something very deep about yourself. As a result of what you learned you will now start to change some of your views and habbits, you will condition yourself differently than before, until eventually those fetters will be gone.

The mind works through conditioning / brain washing you can't get any huge changes instantly.

So first you would be a worldling. Then you will have a special experience (path moment) then you will brainwash your newfound knowledge into yourself until the 3 fetters are gone (fruit)

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by manas » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:56 pm

This sutta seems to imply, that there are levels of the Path to Stream-entry, as far as I can surmise, and that the transition from Path to Fruit could take as long as the rest of one's current lifetime:
Viññana Sutta: Consciousness
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
A question: isn't it logical, that if the faith-follower and the dhamma-follwers are both assured of attaining the fruit of stream-entry before passing away from this current lifetime, does that not imply that they are both on the Path to the Fruit of stream-entry? Might it be that, the Path is when someone is striving, with confirmed virtue and conviction in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, and, one might suspect, doing this sort of contemplation:
"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' (source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)
- and that the Fruit of stream- entry is when this occurs:
"Seeing thus..."
?
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by theY » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:37 am

magga-cetanā is kamma, which causes phala. Phala is vipāka (resultant) of kamma.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by Zom » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:01 pm

From what I have gathered there are two aspects to the attainment of stream-entry...Sotāpattimagga & Sotāpattiphala, the path & fruit. Of these, & similarly with other noble states, which is it that is impossible to fall back from? Which occurs along with the abandoning of the three lower fetters? What is the distinction? How does the former occur compared to the latter, in an experiential sense? As much clarification as possible is appreciated, I have wondered about this for sometime & as such can't recollect all of my questions & confusions regarding the issue.
If you are wise enough at least to some extent, you'll grab the sense behind Buddha's teaching and thus will enter upon the Path to stream-entry. After some time you'll get a Fruit, which is the destruction of 3 fetters: self-view, doubt in what is wrong/right, and clinging to rules and observances. This is the major difference. Anyway, stepping on the Path already guarantees you nibbana in 7 lives at most.

You can read more about it in Samyutta Nikaya texts: SN 55, and SN 25-26-27 taken as whole.

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by _anicca_ » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:48 am

You cannot fall back from the fruit, but you wander from the path.

There is also a culasotapanna, which is a lesser form of sotapanna. Culasotapanna includes truth-followers and faith-followers (one who follows the dhamma after pondering over it with wisdom and truth respectively).
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:07 pm

Following attainment of each of the stages of enlightenment, several final stages of mind arise, of which two significant ones are, Magga and Phala.

Path Knowledge (magga-ñana)
It is followed immediately by knowledge that abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "path knowledge."[43] It is also called "purification by knowledge and vision."

Fruition Knowledge (phala-ñana)
That again is immediately followed by knowledge that belongs to the final stage and continues in the course of its predecessor. It abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "fruition knowledge."

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... agga-phala
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:17 pm

There are those who have realized both in there and now, able to recollect unbinding, they have and are of the Path.

There are those posessing Correct directions as in Right Conviction who will inevitably realize the fruit by death.

There are those who are guaranteed various favorable Births.

Various people are called Sotapanna, ie if Taken as a Pair then there is two Stream Entrants, those guaranteed fruit attainment and those who have the attainement, they are very close but one can recollect the peace.

The Cula Sotapanna is one of those who has a favorable destiny in the next birth it is said in Abhidhamma afaik.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Path vs Fruit of stream-entry

Post by theY » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:17 pm
...
Various people are called Sotapanna, ie if Taken as a Pair then there is two Stream Entrants, those guaranteed fruit attainment and those who have the attainement, they are very close but one can recollect the peace and has already cut the 3 fetters.

The Cula Sotapanna is one of those who has a favorable destiny in the next birth it is said in Abhidhamma afaik.


The Cula Sotapanna appeared in MN Mūlapaṇṇāsaka, Alagaddūpamasutta. It is not just an abhidhamma comment.
...Those bhikkhus who have dispelled the three fetters, all of them enter the stream of the Teaching, do not fall from there intending only extinction. My Teaching is so well proclaimed, made manifest, open and threadbare. Those who have some faith in me, some love for me they all are intent on heaven....
Tipitaka memorizing is very important to understand abhidhamma and commentary.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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