Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:55 am

So just for clarification, is the dhātu in "ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā" paṭiccasamuppāda itself? Is paṭiccasamuppāda definitively described as a persistent dhātu (barring of course being an element in Nibbana, which lacks the paṭiccasamuppāda dhātu)?

In the thread that sparked this thread, I made this statement:
Coëmgenu wrote:It makes me wonder if the saupādisesa ca nibbānadhātu (Nibbana-dhātu with residue) spoken of in the Nibbānadhātusutta (Iti 44) is the "persistence" of the persistent paṭiccasamuppāda dhātu spoken of in the Paccayasutta, assuming of course that the Paccayasutta does indeed label paṭiccasamuppāda as a dhātu, it may well not.


Is this a lesson to be learned from the interrelations between the Paccayasutta and the Nibbānadhātusutta? Is the "residue" some sort of consequence of the general persistence of the paṭiccasamuppāda dhātu (which would theoretically end at Parinibbāna)? Is anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu the same thing as Parinibbāna?

*Also, should this be its own thread?*
:anjali:
-Caoimhghín
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bhagavā arahaṃ sammasāmbuddho:
Svākkhāto yena bhagavatā dhammo / Supaṭipanno yassa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho
Tammayaṃ bhagavantaṃ sadhammaṃ sasaṅghaṃ / Imehi sakkārehi yathārahaṃ āropitehi abhipūjayāma.
(Dedication of Offerings)
此等諸法,法住、法空、法如、法爾,法不離如,法不異如,審諦真實、不顛倒。These many dharmāḥ, the residence of these dharmāḥ, the emptiness of these dharmāḥ, these dharmāḥ self-explain, these dharmāḥ are thus, these dharmāḥ do not depart from their self-explaining, these dharmāḥ are not different than their self-explaining, judged as truly real, not delusional. (SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶

CecilN
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby CecilN » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:41 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Is the "residue" some sort of consequence of the general persistence of the paṭiccasamuppāda dhātu (which would theoretically end at Parinibbāna)?

No. The paṭiccasamuppāda dhātu ends when ignorance ends, which gives rises to the experience of saupādisesā nibbāna. This is what is written in the suttas.
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? ...his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion (ignorance) in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left. Iti 49

Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. MN 38

The "residue" sounds like it refers to sense-impressions & feelings (vedana).
If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body… a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ MN 140


_______

Coëmgenu wrote:Is anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu the same thing as Parinibbāna?

Yes.
Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left?...For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left. Iti 49

The best Nibbana is saupādisesā because it can be experienced & because it guarantees anupādisesā. Without saupādisesā, there can be no anupādisesā. The Buddha came into the world for the purpose of saupādisesā nibbāna. This is why saupādisesā nibbāna should be honored, revered & respected above anupādisesā nibbāna and why Parinibbana should not be regarded as superior to Nibbana. Parinibbana is a term used for the termination of the life of an arahant because arahants do not "die". The best Nibbana is Nibbana.

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:59 am

Anyone Attention In A Nibbāna : Have You Even Known 5 Nibbāna/2 Nibbāna Using In Tipitaka?

See 5 Nibbāna:


See 2 Nibbāna:


saupādisesanibbānadhātu = (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahāna), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (paṭipassaddhi-pahāna).
anupādisesanibbānadhātu = (5) overcoming by escape (nissaraṇa-pahāna).

Another, (1) and (2), using as tadaṅga-pahāna in tadaṅganibbāna-sutta.

nissaraṇa-pahāna = don't have any desire, that is a main cause of birth, so nothing born anymore.

Original Source: Summary of Nibbāna from Tipitaka, by Commentary.

http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... e-you.html
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html


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