Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

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Coëmgenu
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Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:34 am

This whole inquiry is predicated on the notion that it is well-established in classical Theravāda discourse that Nibbana is a dhamma. I have heard this argued on a few threads, and those arguing it tend be people I am wont to trust vis-à-vis matters of classical Theravāda portent. If it is not the case that Nibbana is unambiguously understood to be a dhamma then this question doesn't need to be addressed, and in such a case I apologize ahead of time for wasting anyone's time
:anjali:

If Nibbana is a dhamma, how does that affect the reading/interpretation of the Buddhavacana in the Paccayasutta (SN 12.20)? Particularly this section:

Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃtathā anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.
Whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality.
(SN 12.20)


If paṭiccasamuppāda is a dhātu that is ṭhita (stood, stayed, stationary, [persistent?]), a "fixed course" of dhammas, where is the dhamma that is Nibbana listed as exempt from paṭiccasamuppāda?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Twilight
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Twilight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:48 am

What this is trying to say is: There is this world witch functions according to the laws that govern it. Weather there is a Buddha that arises and explains how it works or not, it will still work the same. The way out of this is the same.

If there would be no Buddha in a period and nobody would know about the existence of nibbana or the way towards it, that nibbana would still exist and the way to it would still be the same.


About nibbana: Nibbana would not "still exist" as a sort of realm but as a concept, as a possibility. It is often called "the element of nibbana" or "deathless element".

Imagine a fire that was extinguished. How would you call that ? You would call it "the element" or "the concept" of a fire been extinguished. It is not something you can say it exists or it does not exist or "where is this thing ? where can I find it ? where did it go ? did it go north, west etc". No, it is simply the idea, the element of a fire extinguished. It is the same with Nibbana. It's not that it's a place where you go that exists or not.
What exists now is a fire. There are these aggregates that exist. Nibbana is when this fire will be extinguished and disappear without a trace.

1) It is incorrect to say nibbana exists because it is not a realm that exists, it is like a fire been extinguished.

2) It is also incorrect to say that nibbana does not exist, that would make it a thing that exists or not. But it is not a thing like a realm that can exist or not, it is like a fire been extinguished. There exists the idea of "a fire extinguished" but that is not a real thing like a tree or a car or a fire, it is just a concept. When you say "nibbana does not exist" that is like saying "there is a realm that does not exist" or "there is a building that does not exist". But there is no realm or other thing to begin with in order for it to exist or not.

3) Similarly, it is incorrect to say neither does it exist neither does it not exist. Because, again, it is not a thing that can exist or not. It is the "ending of all fermentations". The ending of all fermentations is not a thing, it is something like a fire been extinguished.

PS: If one does not agree with this view and believes nibbana is some sort of realm or some sort of pleasurable state that exists, than he should ask this question: Would there be consciousness in that idea of nibbana that I have ? I say this because the "nibbana element" is sometimes used to argue for nibbana as some sort of existing realm or state. But what is meant by "element of nibbana" is what I described above. But keep in mind nibbana is pleasant. How that all works out is a whole nother story for another day.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

SarathW
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:52 am

If paṭiccasamuppāda is a dhātu that is ṭhita (stood, stayed, stationary, [persistent?]), a "fixed course" of dhammas, where is the dhamma that is Nibbana listed as exempt from paṭiccasamuppāda?

The way I understand Nibbana Is an unconditioned reality hence not subject to dependent origination.
However reverse order of DO is the way to Nibbana.
However we did not come here (to this world ie: beginning of DO)from Nibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:59 am

Commentary of Paṭisambhidāmaggo Dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaniddeso wrote:4.Paccayapariggahepaññāti ettha paṭicca phalametīti paccayo. Paṭiccāti na vinā tena, apaccakkhitvāti attho. Etīti uppajjati ceva pavattati cāti attho. Apica upakārakattho paccayattho, tassa paccayassa bahuvidhattā paccayānaṃ pariggahe vavatthāpane ca paññā paccayapariggahe paññā.

Dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇanti ettha dhammasaddo tāva sabhāva-paññā-puñña-paññatti-āpatti-pariyatti-nissattat-āvikāra-guṇa-paccaya-paccayuppannādīsu dissati. Ayañhi

  1. ‘‘kusalā dhammā akusalā dhammā abyākatā dhammā(=included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (dha. sa. tikamātikā 1) sabhāve dissati.
  2. ‘‘Yassete caturo dhammā, saddhassa gharamesino; Saccaṃ dhammo dhiti cāgo, sa ve pecca na socatī’’ti. (su. ni. 190) – Ādīsu paññāyaṃ.
  3. ‘‘Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipākino; Adhammo nirayaṃ neti, dhammo pāpeti suggati’’nti. (theragā. 304) – Ādīsu puññe.
  4. ‘‘Paññattidhammā niruttidhammā adhivacanadhammā’’tiādīsu (dha. sa. dukamātikā 106-108) paññattiyaṃ.
  5. ‘‘Pārājikā dhammā saṅghādisesā dhammā’’tiādīsu (pārā. 233-234) āpattiyaṃ.
  6. ‘‘Idha bhikkhu dhammaṃ jānāti suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇa’’ntiādīsu (a. ni. 5.73) pariyattiyaṃ.
  7. ‘‘Tasmiṃ kho pana samaye dhammā honti (dha. sa. 121). Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharatī’’tiādīsu (dī. ni. 2.373; ma. ni. 1.115) nissattatāyaṃ.
  8. ‘‘Jātidhammā jarādhammā maraṇadhammā’’tiādīsu (a. ni. 10.107) vikāre.
  9. ‘‘Channaṃ buddhadhammāna’’ntiādīsu (mahāni. 50) guṇe.
  10. ‘‘Hetumhi ñāṇaṃ dhammapaṭisambhidā (this dhamma-word included included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (vibha. 720) paccaye (=cause of result).
  11. ‘‘Ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā (this dhamma-word not included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (saṃ. ni. 2.20; a. ni. 3.137) paccayuppanne (=result of cause).

Svāyamidhāpi paccayuppanne daṭṭhabbo. Atthato pana attano sabhāvaṃ dhārentīti vā, paccayehi dhārīyantīti vā, attano phalaṃ dhārentīti vā, attano paripūrakaṃ apāyesu apatamānaṃ dhārentīti vā, sakasakalakkhaṇe dhārentīti vā, cittena avadhārīyantīti vā yathāyogaṃ dhammāti vuccanti. Idha pana attano paccayehi dhārīyantīti dhammā, paccayasamuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti uppajjanti ceva pavattanti ca etāyāti dhammaṭṭhiti, paccayadhammānametaṃ adhivacanaṃ . Tassaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiyaṃ ñāṇaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ. Idañhi samādhibhāvanāmayañāṇe vuttasamādhinā samāhitena cittena yathābhūtañāṇadassanatthāya yogamārabhitvā vavatthāpitanāmarūpassa tesaṃ nāmarūpānaṃ paccayapariggahapariyāyaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ uppajjati. ‘‘Nāmarūpavavatthāne ñāṇa’’nti avatvā eva kasmā ‘‘dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa’’nti vuttanti ce? Paccayapariggaheneva paccayasamuppannapariggahassa siddhattā. Paccayasamuppanne hi apariggahite paccayapariggaho na sakkā hoti kātuṃ. Tasmā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇagahaṇeneva tassa hetubhūtaṃ pubbe siddhaṃ nāmarūpavavatthānañāṇaṃ vuttameva hotīti veditabbaṃ. Kasmā dutiyatatiyañāṇaṃ viya ‘‘samādahitvā paccayapariggahe paññā’’ti na vuttanti ce? Samathavipassanānaṃ yuganaddhattā.

‘‘Samādahitvā yathā ce vipassati, vipassamāno tathā ce samādahe;

Vipassanā ca samatho tadā ahu, samānabhāgā yuganaddhā vattare’’ti. –

Hi vuttaṃ. Tasmā samādhiṃ avissajjetvā samādhiñca ñāṇañca yuganaddhaṃ katvā yāva ariyamaggo, tāva ussukkāpetabbanti ñāpanatthaṃ ‘‘paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa’’micceva vuttanti veditabbaṃ.
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0517a.att2.xml


That's all.

Note: "Dhammaṭṭhitatā" in paccayasutta is Sāriputta's main cause to define the subject in above quote as "dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa".

http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... ns-of.html
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:23 am

theY wrote:
Commentary of Paṭisambhidāmaggo Dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaniddeso wrote:4.Paccayapariggahepaññāti ettha paṭicca phalametīti paccayo. Paṭiccāti na vinā tena, apaccakkhitvāti attho. Etīti uppajjati ceva pavattati cāti attho. Apica upakārakattho paccayattho, tassa paccayassa bahuvidhattā paccayānaṃ pariggahe vavatthāpane ca paññā paccayapariggahe paññā.

Dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇanti ettha dhammasaddo tāva sabhāva-paññā-puñña-paññatti-āpatti-pariyatti-nissattat-āvikāra-guṇa-paccaya-paccayuppannādīsu dissati. Ayañhi

  1. ‘‘kusalā dhammā akusalā dhammā abyākatā dhammā(=included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (dha. sa. tikamātikā 1) sabhāve dissati.
  2. ‘‘Yassete caturo dhammā, saddhassa gharamesino; Saccaṃ dhammo dhiti cāgo, sa ve pecca na socatī’’ti. (su. ni. 190) – Ādīsu paññāyaṃ.
  3. ‘‘Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipākino; Adhammo nirayaṃ neti, dhammo pāpeti suggati’’nti. (theragā. 304) – Ādīsu puññe.
  4. ‘‘Paññattidhammā niruttidhammā adhivacanadhammā’’tiādīsu (dha. sa. dukamātikā 106-108) paññattiyaṃ.
  5. ‘‘Pārājikā dhammā saṅghādisesā dhammā’’tiādīsu (pārā. 233-234) āpattiyaṃ.
  6. ‘‘Idha bhikkhu dhammaṃ jānāti suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇa’’ntiādīsu (a. ni. 5.73) pariyattiyaṃ.
  7. ‘‘Tasmiṃ kho pana samaye dhammā honti (dha. sa. 121). Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharatī’’tiādīsu (dī. ni. 2.373; ma. ni. 1.115) nissattatāyaṃ.
  8. ‘‘Jātidhammā jarādhammā maraṇadhammā’’tiādīsu (a. ni. 10.107) vikāre.
  9. ‘‘Channaṃ buddhadhammāna’’ntiādīsu (mahāni. 50) guṇe.
  10. ‘‘Hetumhi ñāṇaṃ dhammapaṭisambhidā (this dhamma-word included included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (vibha. 720) paccaye (=cause of result).
  11. ‘‘Ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā (this dhamma-word not included nibbāna)’’tiādīsu (saṃ. ni. 2.20; a. ni. 3.137) paccayuppanne (=result of cause).

Svāyamidhāpi paccayuppanne daṭṭhabbo. Atthato pana attano sabhāvaṃ dhārentīti vā, paccayehi dhārīyantīti vā, attano phalaṃ dhārentīti vā, attano paripūrakaṃ apāyesu apatamānaṃ dhārentīti vā, sakasakalakkhaṇe dhārentīti vā, cittena avadhārīyantīti vā yathāyogaṃ dhammāti vuccanti. Idha pana attano paccayehi dhārīyantīti dhammā, paccayasamuppannā dhammā tiṭṭhanti uppajjanti ceva pavattanti ca etāyāti dhammaṭṭhiti, paccayadhammānametaṃ adhivacanaṃ . Tassaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiyaṃ ñāṇaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ. Idañhi samādhibhāvanāmayañāṇe vuttasamādhinā samāhitena cittena yathābhūtañāṇadassanatthāya yogamārabhitvā vavatthāpitanāmarūpassa tesaṃ nāmarūpānaṃ paccayapariggahapariyāyaṃ dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ uppajjati. ‘‘Nāmarūpavavatthāne ñāṇa’’nti avatvā eva kasmā ‘‘dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa’’nti vuttanti ce? Paccayapariggaheneva paccayasamuppannapariggahassa siddhattā. Paccayasamuppanne hi apariggahite paccayapariggaho na sakkā hoti kātuṃ. Tasmā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇagahaṇeneva tassa hetubhūtaṃ pubbe siddhaṃ nāmarūpavavatthānañāṇaṃ vuttameva hotīti veditabbaṃ. Kasmā dutiyatatiyañāṇaṃ viya ‘‘samādahitvā paccayapariggahe paññā’’ti na vuttanti ce? Samathavipassanānaṃ yuganaddhattā.

‘‘Samādahitvā yathā ce vipassati, vipassamāno tathā ce samādahe;

Vipassanā ca samatho tadā ahu, samānabhāgā yuganaddhā vattare’’ti. –

Hi vuttaṃ. Tasmā samādhiṃ avissajjetvā samādhiñca ñāṇañca yuganaddhaṃ katvā yāva ariyamaggo, tāva ussukkāpetabbanti ñāpanatthaṃ ‘‘paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa’’micceva vuttanti veditabbaṃ.
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0517a.att2.xml
Do you know where I could find any of this in English? What document is this from? Is it searchable online from the document name?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:38 am

The western hate commentary and abhidhamma, so it is not directly translated text.

However, it appear in dictionary, because although the western hate commentary, but they always use commentary to translate tipitaka.

Thai idiom call that western action "Someone hating fish, but eating fish soup".

see: https://www.buddhistdoor.org/tc/diction ... ils/dhamma

"Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede" is my recommend.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:50 am

"Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede" is my recommend.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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mikenz66
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:53 am

theY wrote:The western hate commentary and abhidhamma, so it is not directly translated text.

If they hate Commentary they should steer clear of the Classical area of this Forum... :tongue:

:anjali:
Mike

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:27 am

mikenz66 wrote:
theY wrote:The western hate commentary and abhidhamma, so it is not directly translated text.

If they hate Commentary they should steer clear of the Classical area of this Forum... :tongue:

:anjali:
Mike


They must come, mikenz66. Because their theory can not let them understand whole theravada-tipitaka. So they will come to read the definition here.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Twilight
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Twilight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:53 am

theY wrote:"Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede" is my recommend.

Could you explain by yourself what ideas are expressed in that commentary ? Not all of us know pali. What exactly is that commentary saying ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

theY
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:19 pm

My english is terrible. It is very hard for me to translate to english. However this below link is enough. "Pali-English Dictionary, TW Rhys Davids, William Stede" is my recommend.
https://www.buddhistdoor.org/tc/diction ... ils/dhamma

Summary of that commentary:
That commentary explaining about the word "dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa (wisdom in paṭiccasamuppāda)" (like paccayasutta).

Commentary explain "dhamma" word used more than 11 meaning in tipitaka, and quote that word from tipitaka to reference. (You can see 11 meaning in dictionary link).

Commentary got all meaning by the context of each quoted sutta. The meaning maybe have wild essence or maybe have limited essence. It up to context of each sutta.

In 11 meaning, the last meaning quoted from paccayasutta:

‘‘Ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā’’tiādīsu (saṃ. ni. 2.20; a. ni. 3.137) paccayuppanne.

In paṭṭhāna of abhidhamma nibbāna is only paccaya. Nibbāna can not be paccayuppanna.

So "dhamma" word in paccayasutta, do not included nibbāna.

This is the answer of this topic.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Twilight
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Twilight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:51 pm

Thank you. I did not notice the link first time.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

CecilN
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby CecilN » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:If paṭiccasamuppāda is a dhātu that is ṭhita (stood, stayed, stationary, [persistent?]), a "fixed course" of dhammas, where is the dhamma that is Nibbana listed as exempt from paṭiccasamuppāda?

Nibbana (the unconditioned) is not subject to paṭiccasamuppāda (conditioning).

Paṭiccasamuppāda is the "fixed course" of dhammas pertaining to suffering (mental torment).

Anicca, dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) & anatta are the "fixed course" of dhammas pertaining to conditioned things (refer to Dhamma-niyama Sutta).

The "fixed course" of dhammas pertaining to Nibbana, although not directly mentioned in the suttas, is the absence of greed, hatred & delusion. The sadhatu or sabhava of Nibbana is always the absence of greed, hatred & delusion.

Bakmoon
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Bakmoon » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:This whole inquiry is predicated on the notion that it is well-established in classical Theravāda discourse that Nibbana is a dhamma. I have heard this argued on a few threads, and those arguing it tend be people I am wont to trust vis-à-vis matters of classical Theravāda portent. If it is not the case that Nibbana is unambiguously understood to be a dhamma then this question doesn't need to be addressed, and in such a case I apologize ahead of time for wasting anyone's time
:anjali:

If Nibbana is a dhamma, how does that affect the reading/interpretation of the Buddhavacana in the Paccayasutta (SN 12.20)? Particularly this section:

Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃtathā anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.
Whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality.
(SN 12.20)


If paṭiccasamuppāda is a dhātu that is ṭhita (stood, stayed, stationary, [persistent?]), a "fixed course" of dhammas, where is the dhamma that is Nibbana listed as exempt from paṭiccasamuppāda?

Nibbana isn't actually included in the twelve links of dependent origination, so I don't think it applies. And the generalized form of it in terms of this-that conditionality is specifically talking about things that arise and cease.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Twilight
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Twilight » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:12 pm

Dependent origination explains the fire. (made out of the 5 aggregates) It explains how this fire burns because of oxygen, fuel, etc. how it produces light, heat etc. It explains the conditionalities between fuel, heat, light, oxygen etc.
Nibbana is when this fire (described by DO) does not exist anymore because no more fuel (craving) has been put in and, lacking fuel, the fire has been extinguished.

The "fixed course" of dhammas pertaining to Nibbana, although not directly mentioned in the suttas, is the absence of greed, hatred & delusion. The sadhatu or sabhava of Nibbana is always the absence of greed, hatred & delusion.
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When there is no more fire (no more aggregates subject to clinging) there can not be any craving because the things that could be subject to craving do not exist anymore. Saying nibbana is the absence of hatred and delusion is incorrect. That means you believe in a state of been or even, god forbid, a self not subject to greed, hatred & delusion. The only way to describe nibbana is by using the fire metaphor. One who understands things this way would not describe nibbana as absence of hatred or delusion because it is the absence of everything. One could very well say nibbana is the absence of compassion, absence of wisdom, absence of mindfulness etc. or pick any things that exist and say nibbana is their absence. Nibbana is the absence of all conditioned things, meaning everything. Greed, hatred, delusion, compassion, generosity, etc. are all part of the fire. Nibbana is when this fire gets extinguished.

SN 48.5:
Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.

When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. ”
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby SarathW » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:07 am

One could very well say nibbana is the absence of compassion, absence of wisdom, absence of mindfulness etc. or pick any things that exist and say nibbana is their absence. Nibbana is the absence of all conditioned things, meaning everything. Greed, hatred, delusion, compassion, generosity, etc. are all part of the fire. Nibbana is when this fire gets extinguished.


I feel something is missing here.
Can you give me Sutta support to above statement.
Nibbana is not the nothingness.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby theY » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:43 am

Nothingness place is not nibbana. It is ākāsadhātu.
But nothingness after death of arahanta, who have not desire, is saupādisesanibbāna.
Nibbāna, that ariya known, also called anupādisesanibbāna.

Those three words come from original sutta.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/2016/09/tipitaka-memorization-is-rule-of-monks.html

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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Coëmgenu » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:46 am

theY wrote:Nothingness place is not nibbana. It is ākāsadhātu.
But nothingness after death of arahanta, who have not desire, is saupādisesanibbāna.
Nibbāna, that ariya known, also called anupādisesanibbāna.

Those three words come from original sutta.
How do these terms relate to the term "ucchedaváda"? Nibbana-as-annihilation would be ucchedaváda yes?

I can't quite tell what you mean by "nothingness after death of arahanta", do you mean ucchedaváda?
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

SarathW
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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby SarathW » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:16 am

Nothingness place is not nibbana. It is ākāsadhātu.

Nothingness is not Akasadhatu.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana as a dhamma in Classical Theravāda

Postby Twilight » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:19 am

Difference between nibbana and anihilationism:

1. Anahilationist claim it all ends at death and you have to do nothing to stop a round of rebirth.

2. Anihilationism claim that there is a self and this self is destroyed. Buddha claims there was never any self to begin with, just the 5 aggregates. The been is ball made out of needles. You can remove one needle and ad another in his place. After a while, all needles making up the ball will be replaced with other ones. The new ball is neither the same neither different from the previous ball. There is no single thing that will remain there in the ball unchanged, a thing such as "a self of the ball watching all of this". The most difficult part is to understand how consciousness changes from moment to moment. Most people can see how the form aggregate (the body and external form) is changing and how it is not self. But it is more difficult to understand that when it comes to the consciousness aggregate.

3. According to Buddha, nibbana is pleasant. Accoding to anihilationist view, it is neutral.

Anihilationism was considered by Buddha to be the best of the wrong views. This is because such people have no problem accepting a thing as nibbana or non-existence of a self. People of other more idealistic views will generally cling to views about a self existing or nibbana as some sort of pleasant realm.

It is normal for a person to not understand how could such a thing as nibbana be pleasant. It is natural for a person to assume it is something neutral, not pleasant. And somebody once asked Sariputta about this:
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

The rest, here: https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.34
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link


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