Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Kabouterke
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Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by Kabouterke »

Hi there. I've been hunting for suttas in the nikayas where the so-called 9th "jhana" (aka cessation, nirodha samapatti) is mentioned. I've looked through a number of general indices of the suttas, but have only been able to find the following:

MN 111 - Anupada Sutta
AN 9.36 - Jhana Sutta
MN 43 - Mahavedalla Sutta - The Greater Set of Questions-and-Answers

Does anybody know of any suttas in which cessation (i.e. the attainment after the 4th formless attainment) is mentioned in more than just a cursory manner? Or any places to search?

Thanks for your help!
santa100
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by santa100 »

NirodhaSamapatti was discussed in great details on Vism. XXIII.16-52 (starting page 734)
SarathW
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by SarathW »

so-called 9th "jhana IS not Nirodha Samapatti. It is called Sanna Vedaitha Nirodha.
You find this in the following Sutta.
-----------
"Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Nirodha Samapatti or Arahata phala Samadhi is explained in another Sutta.


where the eye will be, and forms, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension; where the ear will be, and sounds... where the nose will be, and aromas... where the tongue will be, and flavors... where the body will be, and tactile sensations, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Kabouterke
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by Kabouterke »

Thanks for the help!
santa100
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:so-called 9th "jhana IS not Nirodha Samapatti. It is called Sanna Vedaitha Nirodha.
"Jhana" is typically associated with the first 4 form jhanas. The next 4 formless states are more commonly referred to as "samapatti" or attainment. For the 9th one, the 2 terms SannaVedayitaNirodha or NirodhaSamapatti can be used interchangeably per Ven. Bodhi's note:
Saññavedayitanirodha, also known as Nirodhasamapatti, the attainment of cessation or cessation attainment, this is a special meditative attainment said to be accessible solely to nonreturners and arahants. As its name suggests, it involves the total cessation of perceptual and affective[feelings] functions, and according to the commentaries, of consciousness and all its associated mental factors. For a detailed discussion according to the commentarial system, see Vism 702–9; Ppn 23:16–52
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Nicolas
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by Nicolas »

Kabouterke wrote:Hi there. I've been hunting for suttas in the nikayas where the so-called 9th "jhana" (aka cessation, nirodha samapatti) is mentioned.
https://www.google.com/search?q="cessat ... g/tipitaka
https://www.google.com/search?q="cessat ... al.net/en/
I use this "site:" function in google quite a lot when looking for suttas.
Kabouterke
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by Kabouterke »

Nicolas wrote: I use this "site:" function in google quite a lot when looking for suttas.
Hi Nicolas. Thanks for the "site:" tip, I had no idea about this. It looks like it's found some interesting things. I will definitely be using this a lot in the future.
spacenick
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by spacenick »

Kabouterke wrote:
Nicolas wrote: I use this "site:" function in google quite a lot when looking for suttas.
Hi Nicolas. Thanks for the "site:" tip, I had no idea about this. It looks like it's found some interesting things. I will definitely be using this a lot in the future.
If that can help, I've downloaded ATI and I use the Spotlight function on my Macbook (which is pretty good) to find suttas using keywords.
SarathW
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote:
SarathW wrote:so-called 9th "jhana IS not Nirodha Samapatti. It is called Sanna Vedaitha Nirodha.
"Jhana" is typically associated with the first 4 form jhanas. The next 4 formless states are more commonly referred to as "samapatti" or attainment. For the 9th one, the 2 terms SannaVedayitaNirodha or NirodhaSamapatti can be used interchangeably per Ven. Bodhi's note:
Saññavedayitanirodha, also known as Nirodhasamapatti, the attainment of cessation or cessation attainment, this is a special meditative attainment said to be accessible solely to nonreturners and arahants. As its name suggests, it involves the total cessation of perceptual and affective[feelings] functions, and according to the commentaries, of consciousness and all its associated mental factors. For a detailed discussion according to the commentarial system, see Vism 702–9; Ppn 23:16–52
Hi Santa
This is not my understanding after investigating this for few years.
I think the best person to ask this question is Ven. Dhammanando.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... it#p371115
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:This is not my understanding after investigating this for few years.
Unfortunately I don't think a few years of investigation can guarantee any definite insight into the matter. Anyway, I can't say anything for certain for the obvious reason that I have not attained the state myself. I simply provided backup sources and literature that say those 2 terms (NirodhaSamapatti and SaññāVedayitaNirodha) can be used interchangeably: Ven. Bodhi's note, Ven. Nyanatiloka's dictionary, and Vism. XXIII.16-52 (particularly paras. 50-51).
SarathW
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by SarathW »

By the way what do you think about the following Sutta?
I think this is what we called Nirodha Samapatti.
========

the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, where the eye will be, and forms, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension; where the ear will be, and sounds... where the nose will be, and aromas... where the tongue will be, and flavors... where the body will be, and tactile sensations, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote:
santa100 wrote:
SarathW wrote:so-called 9th "jhana IS not Nirodha Samapatti. It is called Sanna Vedaitha Nirodha.
"Jhana" is typically associated with the first 4 form jhanas. The next 4 formless states are more commonly referred to as "samapatti" or attainment. For the 9th one, the 2 terms SannaVedayitaNirodha or NirodhaSamapatti can be used interchangeably per Ven. Bodhi's note:
Saññavedayitanirodha, also known as Nirodhasamapatti, the attainment of cessation or cessation attainment, this is a special meditative attainment said to be accessible solely to nonreturners and arahants. As its name suggests, it involves the total cessation of perceptual and affective[feelings] functions, and according to the commentaries, of consciousness and all its associated mental factors. For a detailed discussion according to the commentarial system, see Vism 702–9; Ppn 23:16–52
Hi Santa
This is not my understanding after investigating this for few years.
I think the best person to ask this question is Ven. Dhammanando.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... it#p371115
the link you give simply has ven Dhammando correcting a wrong idea you had about nirodhasammapatti- a different idea from the one you are giving here.
Santa100's citation is apposite and there is no reason to reject it.
SarathW
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Re: Looking for a Sutta which mentions cessation - 9th "jhana" - nirodha samapatti

Post by SarathW »

I got your point.
Then what is the difference between a person in Nirodha Samapatti and non-percipient being?

See:

(22) Unconscious beings (asaññasatta) Only body is present; no mind.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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