Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

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Shuun
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Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by Shuun » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:39 pm

Can someone provide me references to suttas that explain further what exactly is meant by:
Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands citta with rāga as "citta with rāga", or he understands citta without rāga as "citta without rāga", or he understands citta with dosa as "citta with dosa", or he understands citta without dosa as "citta without dosa", or he understands citta with moha as "citta with moha", or he understands citta without moha as "citta without moha", or he understands a collected citta as "a collected citta", or he understands a scattered citta as "a scattered citta", or he understands an expanded citta as "an expanded citta", or he understands an unexpanded citta as "an unexpanded citta", or he understands a surpassable citta as "a surpassable citta", or he understands an unsurpassable citta as "an unsurpassable citta", or he understands a settled citta as "a settled citta", or he understands an unsettled citta as "an unsettled citta", or he understands a liberated citta as "a liberated citta", or he understands an unliberated citta as "an unliberated citta".
precisely what is -

saṅkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "collected" citta
vikkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "scattered" citta
(does this refer to scattering in senses?)

mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "expanded" citta
a·mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "unexpanded" citta
(does this refer to being ''inwardly constricted" - aka being tied to pleasure of jhana?)

sa·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "surpassable" citta
an·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "unsurpassable" citta
(discerning if there is any higher jhana/state or not?)

samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "settled" citta
a·samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "unsettled" citta
(mastered/attained in absorption and not?)

vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "liberated" citta
a·vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "unliberated" citta
(4th stage Arhat and not?)

Please provide references to any sutta you know describes those! :alien:

SarathW
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:05 pm

The way I understand: I think my understanding is very close to the way you understand it. :)

saṅkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "collected" citta = Jhana state concentrated
vikkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "scattered" citta = Unrest a state of putujana (common people)
(does this refer to scattering in senses?)

mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "expanded" citta = With loving kindness or Brahama Vihara
a·mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "unexpanded" citta = Slugish or unwholsome
(does this refer to being ''inwardly constricted" - aka being tied to pleasure of jhana?)

sa·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "surpassable" citta = Refer to different stage of Jhana attainment
an·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "unsurpassable" citta = Refer to highest Jhana you can pass this point
(discerning if there is any higher jhana/state or not?)

samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "settled" citta = May be referring to Sukaha
a·samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "unsettled" citta
(mastered/attained in absorption and not?)

vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "liberated" citta = four stages liberation
a·vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "unliberated" citta
(4th stage Arhat and not?)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Shuun
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by Shuun » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:13 am

saṅkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "collected" citta = Jhana state concentrated
vikkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "scattered" citta = Unrest a state of putujana (common people)
I think its mentioned often enough in suttas to know that scattered/upset mind directly relates to sense indulgence. That would make this pair basically concentrated/not concentrated-scattered in senses.
mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "expanded" citta = With loving kindness or Brahama Vihara
a·mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "unexpanded" citta = Slugish or unwholsome
Now for this I'm not so sure. First of all mind in and on itself has nothing to do with loving kindness - loving kindness is dhamma, not mind on itself. Jhana factors for jhana do not contain ''loving kindness'' as factor. The same goes for the opposite of that - ''unwholesome'' does not really point to anything useful (it could be anything unwholesome) - and both sluggish/unwholesome are dhammas, not mind in mind kind of phenomena. Also sloth&torpor is covered in section of dhammas, so are the rest of five hindrances, it just does not belong here. Also they are given in pair of positive & negative, implying they are antonyms of sort in this context. There are some suttas where Buddha or some Arhat talks about meditation and constricted/unexpanded and expanded always means being tied to pleasure of jhana and always comes together and after reference of mind being outwardly scattered - in the senses. Never it's anything about metta or sluggishness of sorts.
sa·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "surpassable" citta = Refer to different stage of Jhana attainment
an·uttaraṃ cittaṃ - "unsurpassable" citta = Refer to highest Jhana you can pass this point
Makes sense. As the sutta states below, this is supposed to lead one to anagami and arhat, so it would be necessary to know what kind of jhana are you in and discern is there any further development - that is also mentioned often as part of practice elsewhere. In pali "uttaram" also means higher/upper/subsequent following/second, so that makes sense.
samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "settled" citta = May be referring to Sukaha
a·samāhitaṃ cittaṃ - "unsettled" citta
Now this one is again a pair of this and not-this. "samāhitaṃ " means put down, fitted, having attained in pali. I would think this means to mastery of each jhana. That would also be natural progression - one knows first what the current stage is and then if its mastered or not. What do you mean by "Sukaha"?
vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "liberated" citta = four stages liberation
a·vimuttaṃ cittaṃ - "unliberated" citta
This one i think is the easiest - there are tons of references about reflecting on mind and discerning it as liberated/task done/holy life lived and such.

santa100
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by santa100 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:28 am

Ven. Bodhi's footnote from MN 10:
The paired examples of citta given in this passage contrast states of mind of wholesome and unwholesome, or developed and undeveloped character. An exception, however, is the pair “contracted” and “distracted,” which are both unwholesome, the former due to sloth and torpor, the latter due to restlessness and remorse. MA explains “exalted mind” and “unsurpassed mind” as the mind pertaining to the level of the jhānas and immaterial meditative attainments, and “unexalted mind” and “surpassed mind” as the mind pertaining to the level of sense-sphere consciousness. “Liberated mind” must be understood as a mind temporarily and partly freed from defilements through insight or the jhānas. Since the practice of satipaṭṭhāna pertains to the preliminary phase of the path aimed at the supramundane paths of deliverance, this last category should not be understood as a mind liberated through attainment of the supramundane paths.

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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by Shuun » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:35 am

santa100 wrote:Ven. Bodhi's footnote from MN 10:
The paired examples of citta given in this passage contrast states of mind of wholesome and unwholesome, or developed and undeveloped character. An exception, however, is the pair “contracted” and “distracted,” which are both unwholesome, the former due to sloth and torpor, the latter due to restlessness and remorse. MA explains “exalted mind” and “unsurpassed mind” as the mind pertaining to the level of the jhānas and immaterial meditative attainments, and “unexalted mind” and “surpassed mind” as the mind pertaining to the level of sense-sphere consciousness. “Liberated mind” must be understood as a mind temporarily and partly freed from defilements through insight or the jhānas. Since the practice of satipaṭṭhāna pertains to the preliminary phase of the path aimed at the supramundane paths of deliverance, this last category should not be understood as a mind liberated through attainment of the supramundane paths.
I know a sutta where the contracted mind is explained by Arhat and then confirmed by Buddha as mind attached to jhana bliss, and i have never seen a sutta where it is sloth&torpor - and those are dhammas(and covered in section of dhammas/hindrances), it is not mind on itself. Can someone provide me a sutta where it is explained as sloth&torpor?

santa100
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by santa100 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Shuun wrote:saṅkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "collected" citta
vikkhittaṃ cittaṃ - "scattered" citta
(does this refer to scattering in senses?)

mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "expanded" citta
a·mahaggataṃ cittaṃ - "unexpanded" citta
(does this refer to being ''inwardly constricted" - aka being tied to pleasure of jhana?)
What you rendered as contracted/constricted mind is not the amahaggatam-citta. It's the sankhitta-citta/narrowed, compressed, or contracted(Ven. Bodhi's translation), which is due to sloth and torpor. The amahaggata-citta/small, or unexalted(Ven. Bodhi's translation) is the mind pertaining to sense-sphere consciousness, which is opposed to mahaggata-citta/great or exalted, the mind pertaining to the level of jhanas.

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Shuun
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by Shuun » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:32 am

santa100 wrote:It's the sankhitta-citta/narrowed, compressed, or contracted(Ven. Bodhi's translation), which is due to sloth and torpor.
Again, sutta on the matter or only commentary? Commentary won't do, translations are painful enough to deal with, even then i rather translate word-by-word from Pali, instead of relying on translations of commentaries of translations of commentaries of unknowns.

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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by cobwith » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:26 pm

Shuun wrote:Can someone provide me references to suttas
Notes on Mind related to your question, from Satipatthana - The Direct Path to Realization by Anālayo Bhikkhu.
References to suttas that also use these words.

Citta and Mano
Sā me dhammamadesesi,
khandhāyatanadhātuyo
Thig 5.8

Edwinicq
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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by Edwinicq » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:27 am

Shuun wrote:
Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:32 am
santa100 wrote:It's the sankhitta-citta/narrowed, compressed, or contracted(Ven. Bodhi's translation), which is due to sloth and torpor.
Again, sutta on the matter or only commentary? Commentary won't do, translations are painful enough to deal with, even then i rather translate word-by-word from Pali, instead of relying on translations of commentaries of translations of commentaries of unknowns.
I agree commentary is hard to track. Here's what Analayo Bhikku said (and cited) in his book (pg. 192)
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... t-path.pdf
Disclosure: I haven't "fact checked" him on the citations.
The two states of mind listed next for contemplation, contracted (saúkhitta) and distracted (vikkhitta), both appear to have negative implications.19 The same two terms occur elsewhere in the discourses, with inward “contraction” being the result of sloth-and-torpor, and external “distraction” the outcome of pursuing sensual pleasures.20 The commentaries on the Satipaììhãna Sutta indeed relate the “contracted” state of mind to sloth-and-torpor, while according to them the “distracted” state of mind represents restlessness.21

20: SV279. The relation of these two to “internal” and “external” occurs again atAIV 32.

21: Ps I 280. However, in the above mentioned discourse at S V 279 the hindrance restlessness occurs separately, apparently not forming part of “distracted”, whereas according to the commentarial explanation the two should be identical. The relation of “distracted” to the search for sense gratification (as at S V 279) occurs also atMIII 225. The consequences of a distracted state of mind are, according to A V 147, that one becomes unable to direct one’s attention skilfully, avoid unwholesome behaviour, or overcome mental inertia.

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Re: Mahasatipatthana sutta - section on mind

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:35 am

Edwinicq wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:27 am
Here's what Analayo Bhikku said... the hindrance restlessness...
The Mahasatipatthana Sutta section on mind appears copied from the many suttas that refer to knowing the minds of others, externally, using psychic powers. For example:
MN 119 wrote:[7] "He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [1] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.

MN 119
It appears to simply not make logical sense that hindrances are known in the section on mind (cittanupassana), let alone in the section of dhamma (dhammanupassana), given the hindrances must be removed to know & calm the body section (kayanupassana). Even conventional teachers such as Sujato Bhikkhu have called as 'fake' or 'hoax' ('Piltdown Sutta') the Mahasatipatthana sutta.

For example, the Anapanasati Sutta says every part of the section on mind (cittanupassana) is known together with knowing each in breath and each out breath. Therefore, based on the Anapanasati Sutta, the mind must be concentrated to know the mind.
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