Hello all
I heard a teacher talk about a sutta which is on the establishment of satipatthana (which refers to the content of what we see etc) and the development of satipatthana (which refers to the process of arising and falling away of the objects of satipatthana.)
Would anybody be able to identify that sutta? Thanks
Phil
"Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
"Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
The Satipatthana Sutta itself includes contemplations on origination and dissolution.phil wrote: I heard a teacher talk about a sutta which is on the establishment of satipatthana (which refers to the content of what we see etc) and the development of satipatthana (which refers to the process of arising and falling away of the objects of satipatthana.)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html
Or were you looking for something more specific? Here's one on the rise and fall of vedana ( feeling ): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
- Goofaholix
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Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
I'm not sure the talk you refer to is based on a sutta, but I think it's common for people to start satipatthana practice with the idea that they are observing semi permanent objects but gradually if they are doing it right start to see experience in terms of constantly changing processes.phil wrote: I heard a teacher talk about a sutta which is on the establishment of satipatthana (which refers to the content of what we see etc) and the development of satipatthana (which refers to the process of arising and falling away of the objects of satipatthana.)
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
Thanks Goofaholix and Spiny Norman
It was actually a series of talks on the satipatthana sutta by Joseph Goldstein that I was listening to. And he did refer without giving a reference to the sutta as I described it. I find it a bit frustrating to listen to him because at times he so good but at other times he's really quite facile about the development of satipatthana. I wish he would use the proper classical commentary rather than relying on venerable Analayo's book, it might oblige him to be a little less confident about how easy and commmon it is to have satipatthana. For example he starts by assuming that the perception of rising and falling is something that all meditators at the retreat he is speaking to easily already have, which really is misguiding since earlier in the talk he says that it is one of the "wonderful and marvelous things" that the Buddha says is a sign of the Tathagata and that a single moment of this perception is deeply valuable. After some years away I've been listening to some of the talks from the Barrie insight meditation teachers and really it does seem to me to all be very attractive but a little bit facile and possibly feeding wrong ideas about how easy satipatthana. I think more attention to classical commentaries and Abhidhamma can help prevent that facile attitude but at the same time I do think that listening to popular modern speakers can be invigorating and get us going in terms of making superficial changes in our life with respect to sila which may be helpful condition for deeper teachings to be able to sink in properly in the very gradual way that they must.
Anyways sorry moderators I know that's off-topic but just expressing a bit of frustration I have been feeling. Maybe it's not completely out of place in this sub-forum since I am praising the importance of classical references in the development of pariyatti.
I guess the sutta that he is referring to is somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya chapter on Satipatthana. I will have a look
for it. Thanks again.
Phil
It was actually a series of talks on the satipatthana sutta by Joseph Goldstein that I was listening to. And he did refer without giving a reference to the sutta as I described it. I find it a bit frustrating to listen to him because at times he so good but at other times he's really quite facile about the development of satipatthana. I wish he would use the proper classical commentary rather than relying on venerable Analayo's book, it might oblige him to be a little less confident about how easy and commmon it is to have satipatthana. For example he starts by assuming that the perception of rising and falling is something that all meditators at the retreat he is speaking to easily already have, which really is misguiding since earlier in the talk he says that it is one of the "wonderful and marvelous things" that the Buddha says is a sign of the Tathagata and that a single moment of this perception is deeply valuable. After some years away I've been listening to some of the talks from the Barrie insight meditation teachers and really it does seem to me to all be very attractive but a little bit facile and possibly feeding wrong ideas about how easy satipatthana. I think more attention to classical commentaries and Abhidhamma can help prevent that facile attitude but at the same time I do think that listening to popular modern speakers can be invigorating and get us going in terms of making superficial changes in our life with respect to sila which may be helpful condition for deeper teachings to be able to sink in properly in the very gradual way that they must.
Anyways sorry moderators I know that's off-topic but just expressing a bit of frustration I have been feeling. Maybe it's not completely out of place in this sub-forum since I am praising the importance of classical references in the development of pariyatti.
I guess the sutta that he is referring to is somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya chapter on Satipatthana. I will have a look
for it. Thanks again.
Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
- Goofaholix
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Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
I think you expect too much. He will have been speaking to a group interested in practicing a meditation technique so they would only need enough practical detail on how to practice it not the why's and wherefores of the theory and commentaries etc. Also odds on they were a group of experienced meditators so may not have need the basics of the practical instructions.phil wrote:other times he's really quite facile about the development of satipatthana.
If you want a sutta study or to study the theory in detail I think you're looking in the wrong place.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
Right you are.Goofaholix wrote:I think you expect too much. He will have been speaking to a group interested in practicing a meditation technique so they would only need enough practical detail on how to practice it not the why's and wherefores of the theory and commentaries etc. Also odds on they were a group of experienced meditators so may not have need the basics of the practical instructions.phil wrote:other times he's really quite facile about the development of satipatthana.
If you want a sutta study or to study the theory in detail I think you're looking in the wrong place.
I could write about the danger of plunging into techniques without understanding, without having correct pariyatti, but I won't get into that here. After some time away from meditation I'm enjoying it and do feel the benefits. They speak for themselves. As long as we keep in mind that the deeper truth of the Dharmma lies beneath many modern-day practices. Of course that's just my opinion as it is also my opinion that to begin to get to the deeper truth, we need a solid foundation of theoretical study.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
Interesting comment. It's something I've wondered about too listening to some of the contemporary teachers. Like what is being given is actually just an introduction, or a way in to the practice, but people seem to think that is the whole practice?phil wrote: After some years away I've been listening to some of the talks from the Barrie insight meditation teachers and really it does seem to me to all be very attractive but a little bit facile and possibly feeding wrong ideas about how easy satipatthana. Phil
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: "Establishment" and "development" of satipatthana
Hi all
I found the sutta I was looking for, it's SN 47:40.
The speaker seems to have misinterpreted it to make it fit with the idea he wants to express but he's not alone, of course.
By chance I found a relevant sutta this morning and will now exploit it by quoting it to make it fit with my point.
It is AN 2:41
phil
I found the sutta I was looking for, it's SN 47:40.
The speaker seems to have misinterpreted it to make it fit with the idea he wants to express but he's not alone, of course.
By chance I found a relevant sutta this morning and will now exploit it by quoting it to make it fit with my point.
It is AN 2:41
I tend to paraphrase the Buddha's teaching a lot, as the speaker in question was doing. We should be careful about that and remember that the true Dhamma is a lot deeper than the version that might exist only in our thinking at any moment and that we are attached to because it lines up with what we want to believe at the time.Bhikkhus, those Bhikkhus who exclude the meaning and the Dhamma by means of badly acquired discourses whose phrasing is a semblance of the correct phrasing are acting for the harm of many people, for the unhappiness of many people, for the ruin, harm and suffering of many people, of devas and human beings. These bhikkhus generate much demerit and cause the good Dhamma to disappear.
phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)