Page 2 of 2

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:24 am
by Srilankaputra
Ayonisi manasikara:

Image


Yoniso manasikara :

Image

IMO

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:21 am
by SarathW
Hi Lankaputra
Your example represents a Putujana Yoniso Manasikara.
We are talking about the Lokuttara Yoniso Manasikara in terms of Noble Eightfold Path.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:54 am
by Srilankaputra
Hi Sarath,

It still applies IMO. Soon as samma sati is involved it becomes lokuttara yoniso manasikara.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:57 am
by paul
The horse example is a simple case of cause and effect linked to mundane right view. It’s true that the type of attention exercised is the source of progress or regression along the path, but the results don’t manifest immediately, there is a time delay. The practitioner has to carefully observe for themselves how acts of attachment lead to stress.

"Therefore, monks, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"---SN 56.44

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:14 pm
by ToVincent
paul wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:57 am
The practitioner has to carefully observe for themselves how acts of attachment lead to stress.
This is why, before one can understand the meaning of Yoniso Manasikaroti, one should understand the meaning of Mano (manasi).

Below is a link with extracts from suttas with parallels, about Mano & Yoniso Manasikara.
https://justpaste.it/119gt
(It also explains the place of the Citta in the process).

Mano is the locus of the intellectualisation of an emotional affect. It is the locus of the conscious subjective aspect of feelings or emotions.
Yoniso Manasikara is intellectualising emotionally (viz. with the mano) from the origin.
.
.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:25 pm
by paul
Manasikara is simple, it is the mind's first confrontation with the object and I think even a beginner knows what it is. There is only the object, the decision (manasikara), and the knowledge: suffering, the cause of suffering, and the release from suffering, and it is the latter part of right view that is difficult and requires strengthening. Because there is a time delay between unskillful actions and the stress that arises from them, or skillful actions and the consequent unbinding, what is necessary for yoniso manasikara is careful reflection on the mind states that arise subsequent to decisions/actions involving renunciation of the hindrances. It is likened to food (SN 46.51), and with a little experience everyone knows which to eat and which to avoid. It is simple, but at the same time those decisions determine the practitioners gradual emancipation from samsara.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:56 pm
by SarathW
Is Yonis Manasikara means Samma Sankappa in Noble Eightfold Path?

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:25 pm
by SavakaNik
If that's what I think it is then it's the same word Nanamoli Thera explains quite insightfully on a few occasions in his videos on the YouTube channel called "Hillside Hermitage". He points out yoni means vulva, or womb..

I'm not sure what the conventional translation is but, again if this is even the same pali term we are talking about in the first place, part of it literally means something like "to return, or go, to the womb", a priori meaning "to gather one at whence one is" or in more experiential terms "to gather your awareness at the place from where it came".

Like, to retain your attention mindfully -at the nature of phenomena; rather than non-mindfully- at the content of phenomena.

I think it's pretty much just an expression intended to illustrate what someone is doing when they are actually establishing right effort, establishing the foundations of mindfulness, and suppressing the hindrances.

EDIT:
I'm quite certain we are talking about the same term, I'm going to find where I heard him talking about it and share, that's going to take some time but I honestly want to hear that talk again now.

EDIT2:
I just realized the title of this post, I dont want to get off topic, I guess it depends if OP is strictly only interested in textual references.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm
by ToVincent
SavakaNik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:25 pm
... part of it literally means something like "to return, or go, to the womb", a priori meaning "to gather one at whence one is" or in more experiential terms "to gather your awareness at the place from where it came".
Right!
'When what exists does birth come to be? By what is birth conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through (sensorily and emotionally) intellectualising (with the mano) from the origin, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is existence, birth comes to be; birth has existence as its condition.'
(idem for existence, etc.)
‘kimhi nu kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, kiṃpaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti? Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo: ‘jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti.
SN 12.4
or SN 12.65
______

Now, the question remains:
What is mano (manas)?

Therefore one can check the suttas extracts where mano or manasa appear; namely in this:
https://justpaste.it/rtcu
and (again) in this (yoniso manasikara included):
https://justpaste.it/119gt

With a proper lexicography, it should make sense.
.
.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:00 am
by SavakaNik
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:25 pm
SavakaNik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:25 pm
... part of it literally means something like "to return, or go, to the womb", a priori meaning "to gather one at whence one is" or in more experiential terms "to gather your awareness at the place from where it came".
Right!
'When what exists does birth come to be? By what is birth conditioned?' Then, bhikkhus, through (sensorily and emotionally) intellectualising (with the mano) from the origin, there took place in me a breakthrough by wisdom: 'When there is existence, birth comes to be; birth has existence as its condition.'
(idem for existence, etc.)
‘kimhi nu kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, kiṃpaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti? Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa yoniso manasikārā ahu paññāya abhisamayo: ‘jātiyā kho sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇan’ti.
SN 12.4
or SN 12.65
______

Now, the question remains:
What is mano (manas)?

Therefore one can check the suttas extracts where mano or manasa appear; namely in this:
https://justpaste.it/rtcu
and (again) in this (yoniso manasikara included):
https://justpaste.it/119gt

With a proper lexicography, it should make sense.
.
.
Yes! Thank you for the textual context :anjali: and if I'm reading this right, where the translation states "from the origin" is where in the pali is "yoniso", which would mean you have corroborated scripturally the elucidation of the phrase being symbolic of the literal "vulva/womb" as "source/whence/origin"

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:37 am
by paul
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:56 pm
Is Yonis Manasikara means Samma Sankappa in Noble Eightfold Path?
Appropriate attention certainly focuses on accomplishing the attendant tasks of the noble truths (right view), but it does so with regard to mental qualities, rather than the physical behaviour of the sila group which results from right intention. So appropriate attention is a connection between right view and right mindfulness, where it accomplishes the work of the fourth foundation, to starve the five hindrances and to feed the seven factors for awakening.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:24 pm
by ToVincent
SavakaNik wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:00 am
.... if I'm reading this right, where the translation states "from the origin" is where in the pali is "yoniso",... the literal "vulva/womb" as "source/whence/origin"
That is correct.

Let me illustrate the finest example of yoniso "manasikarising", if you may.

First, you have to open this little sketch:
https://justpaste.it/img/02a4de2cbca791 ... fc0f10.png

Notice the two definitions of Nama-rupa. The SA 298 definition, and the SN 12.2 definition.

When a satta (man/woman) wants to avoid the latter definition (that leads to mano-sañ-cetanā and maintenance of consciousness), he/she has to yoniso manasikarize towards the former definition. That is to say, towards the Nama-rupa link in paṭiccasamuppāda - bypassing in the process, the contact with the external field of sensory experience (bāhirāni āyatanāni).

The latter is defined in the suttas as what one considers "mine". While the namarupa link before the salayatana link, is considered as what one considers "I" (see SN 22.89 & SN 22.47 for that matter).

To yoniso manasikarize, with the internal salayatana (ajjattikani āyatanāni), using mano (manasikara); directly towards the namarupa link - allows one to pick the attribute (the sign) of his/her own citta (SN 47.8).

Metta.
.

Re: yoniso manasikara in the texts.

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:25 pm
by ToVincent
paul wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:37 am
Appropriate attention certainly focuses on accomplishing the attendant tasks of the noble truths (right view), but it does so with regard to mental qualities, rather than the physical behaviour of the sila group which results from right intention. So appropriate attention is a connection between right view and right mindfulness, where it accomplishes the work of the fourth foundation, to starve the five hindrances and to feed the seven factors for awakening.
"Appropriate attention" is a misleading translation, as much as translating both mano & citta as "mind".
It is misleading, because it feels like some kind of "mindfulness", that seems to equate the "mindfulness" in what you call "right mindfulness".

The Noble Eightfold Path should be properly translated as such:
right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right acquisition (of citta), and right establishment (in citta).

The same way that satipaṭṭhānā should be translated as:
"The way to attain the acquisition" - (in the case of genuine Buddhism: the RIGHT acquisition of citta).

From prasthāna = act. प्रस्था prasthā [pra-sthā]
A way to attain, course , method , system KātyŚr.
&
Sati
from सति sati = साति sāti = सन्ति santi = gaining , obtaining , acquisition (RV.)
Sati as "obtention", "acquisition".

And as far as the four courses to attain the acquisition (of citta) [the cattāro satipaṭṭhānā] are concerned; they are a connected series of developments, and a route along which someone travels to reach its own citta, though the help of yoniso manasikara.

Yoniso manasikara has very little to do with the western concept of "mindfulness" (attention/concentration-like).
Yoniso manasikara is about striving with the mano, towards the origin. It can be the effortful attempt to obtain one's own citta, with the help of the sensory and emotional mano. Trying to bypass the sensory and emotional part of it. What is called in MN 43: parisuddhena manoviññanena (purified mano-consciousness).

Metta.
.