Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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vkasdn
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Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

sorry if this is posted elsewhere, search didnt prove very helpful, i am looking for a little help if anyone happens to know off-hand that would be great, but basically, there are suttas i have read, i remember the jist but it was so long ago i have forgotten the full context, so i would like to know which suttas they are from, any help would be greatly appreciated.

first one, is there was a sutta, where i think it was the buddha had compared those who we are in association with as being something with a particular odor, and when grass (or something) is kept in the same box, or drawer (or something) it will take the same scent.

second one, someone was speaking to the buddha (forget who) and asked the buddha how he felt, or what kind of pleasure/delight he abides in, he said it was neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling that he calls pleasant.

there's probably a bunch more i cannot think of right now...if this works out i may post them later depending on the responses

Maybe this can be a thread for others to post questions about suttas they are looking for...
Last edited by vkasdn on Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
culaavuso
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by culaavuso »

vkasdn wrote: first one, is there was a sutta, where i think it was the buddha had compared those who we are in association with as being something with a particular odor, and when grass (or something) is kept in the same box, or drawer (or something) it will take the same scent.
This sounds like a mix of perhaps SN 22.89 and AN 8.54 or SN 45.2.
SN 22.89: Khemaka Sutta wrote: "Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."
AN 8.54: Byagghapajja Sutta wrote: There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.
SN 45.2: Upaḍḍha Sutta wrote: Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
vkasdn wrote: second one, someone was speaking to the buddha (forget who) and asked the buddha how he felt, or what kind of pleasure/delight he abides in, he said it was neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling that he calls pleasant.
This sounds like perhaps AN 9.34, which is actually Sariputta explaining how Unbinding is pleasant
AN 9.34: Nibbānasukha wrote: I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt."
...
Alternatively it sounds somewhat like part of MN 44 in part of an answer given by Dhammadinna
MN 44: Cūḷavedalla Sutta wrote: Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge.
MN 14 seems somewhat related with a quote attributed to the Buddha:
MN 14: Cūḷa­dukkha­kkhandha Sutta wrote: Now, I — without moving my body, without uttering a word — can dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for a day and a night... for two days & nights... for three... four... five... six... seven days & nights.
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vkasdn
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply, you hit the nail right on the head perfectly, thank you again sk much, so greatly appreciated
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by Ananda26 »

vkasdn wrote:
someone was speaking to the buddha (forget who) and asked the buddha how he felt, or what kind of pleasure/delight he abides in, he said it was neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling that he calls pleasant.
Here is a Sutta #59 from Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha where Buddha describes the highest pleasure.
Bahuvedaniya Sutta: The Many Kinds of Feeling
Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery.[1] Then Carpenter Fivetools went to see the Venerable Udayi. Having saluted him respectfully, he sat down at one side. Thus seated, he asked the Venerable Udayi:

"How many kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One?"

"Three kinds of feelings, Carpenter, were taught by the Blessed One: pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. These are the three feelings taught by the Blessed One."

After these words, Carpenter Fivetools said: "Not three kinds of feelings, reverend Udayi, were taught by the Blessed One. It is two kinds of feelings that were stated by the Blessed One: pleasant and painful feelings. The neutral feeling was said by the Blessed One to belong to peaceful and sublime happiness."

But the Venerable Udayi replied: "It is not two feelings that were taught by the Blessed One, but three: pleasant, painful and neutral feelings."

(This exchange of views was repeated for a second and a third time,) but neither was Carpenter Fivetools able to convince the Venerable Udayi, nor could the Venerable Udayi convince Carpenter Fivetools. It so happened that [the] Venerable Ananda had listened to that conversation and went to see the Blessed One about it. Having saluted the Blessed One respectfully, he sat down at one side. Thus seated, he repeated the entire conversation that had taken place between the Venerable Udayi and Carpenter Fivetools.

The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.[2] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation.

"Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words.

"Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes.

"There are five strands of sense desire. What are these five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sensual desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, that are wished for, desirable, agreeable and endearing, bound up with sense desire, and tempting to lust. These are the five strands of sense desire. The pleasure and joy arising dependent on these five strands of sense desire, that is called sensual pleasure.

"Now, if someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure and joy that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, quite secluded from sensual desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana), which is accompanied by thought conception and discursive thinking and has in it joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that (sense) pleasure and is more sublime.

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is that pleasure? Here, with the stilling of thought conception and discursive thinking... a monk enters upon and abides in the second meditative absorption... in the sphere of the infinity of space... of the infinity of consciousness... of no-thingness... of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

"If someone were to say: 'This is the highest pleasure that can be experienced,' I would not concede that. And why not? Because there is another kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime. And what is this pleasure? Here, by completely surmounting the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a monk enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the other kind of pleasure which surpasses that pleasure and is more sublime.[3]

"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. The venerable Ananda was satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words.
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vkasdn
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

Can anyone help me find which sutta it is where the buddha advised against making music/songs from the discourse? I have been searching, but cannot find it. Any help is appreciated, thank you in advance.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It is the Gītassara Sutta (A.iii.250) (The Book of Fives).
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vkasdn
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:It is the Gītassara Sutta (A.iii.250) (The Book of Fives).
That is it exactly! Thank you kindly venerable sir

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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by Abhinav »

Greetings everyone! During the time of the Buddha, a low caste scavenger was ordained by the Buddha. I read his story in Old Path White Clouds by Thich Nhat Hanh and even in Dr.Ambedkar's book, The Buddha and his Dhamma. I want to read the original story as found in Tipitaka but I can't find it even in the Suttas or in the Vinayas. I only found its glimpse in Theragatha where Sunita was himself commenting. Can anyone tell me that where I can read the full original story as contained in Tipitaka? Or perhaps as someone told me that it might be in the commentaries? I shall be very grateful if someone throws light on this issue. With regards, Abhinav :thinking:
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Abhinav,

Can you describe the story in more detail? That might help to locate it.

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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by Abhinav »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Abhinav,

Can you describe the story in more detail? That might help to locate it.

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the response. The story as I have read from some books is that there was a low caste man known as Sunita who worked as a scavenger One day as the Buddha was going on alms round he saw Sunita carrying night soil. The Buddha asks him to enter into Sangha and then ordains this man saying that there is no caste in Dhamma. After ordination, Sunita becomes an Arahant by following the dhamma.

Full story can be found here from Thitch Nhat Hanh's book.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/dr-b-r-a ... 7038084396
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's the Dictionary of Proper Pali Names entry. It seem that the Theragatha text is all that is in the Suttas. See the links below.

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/sunita_thera.html
Sunīta Thera
He belonged to a family of flower scavengers in Rājagaha and eked out a miserable existence as road sweeper. One day the Buddha saw that Sunīta was destined for Arahantship and visited him at dawn, as he was sweeping the street and collecting the scraps in his basket. Seeing the Buddha, he was filled with awe, and, finding no place to stand, stood stiffly against a wall. The Buddha approached him and asked if he would like to be a monk. He expressed great joy, and the Buddha ordained him with the “come bhikkhu” going-forth. Then he took Sunīta to the vihāra and taught him a subject of meditation, by which he won Arahantship. Then many men and gods came to pay homage to him, and Sunīta taught them on his way of attainment.

In the past he had spoken disparagingly of a Pacceka Buddha.
Thag.vss.620‑31; https://suttacentral.net/en/thag12.2
ThagA.i.540 f. (Commentary)
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vkasdn
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

I am curious if anyone can tell me if there is a sutta where the buddha explains the ways of answering questions, either with yes or no, by reframing the question, answering analytically, or by counter question....or something like that. I tried finding the sutta, but now i wonder even if it was read in sutta, commentary, or heard in some talk.. any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance..
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by Mkoll »

AN 4.42 wrote:There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions.”

First the categorical answer,
then the qualified,
third, the type to be counter-questioned,
& fourth, the one to be set aside.
Any monk who knows which is which,
in line with the Dhamma,
is said to be skilled
in the four types of questions:
hard to overcome, hard to beat,
profound, hard to defeat.
He knows what’s worthwhile
& what’s not,
proficient in (recognizing) both,
he rejects the worthless,
grasps the worthwhile.
He’s called one who has broken through
to what’s worthwhile,
prudent,
wise.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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mikenz66
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by mikenz66 »

And see:
This discourse also shows, in action, the Buddha's teaching on the four categories of questions and how they should be answered (see AN 4.42). The prince asks him two questions, and in both cases he responds first with a counter-question, before going on to give an analytical answer to the first question and a categorical answer to the second. ...
...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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vkasdn
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Re: Sutta help (finding certain texts)

Post by vkasdn »

Thank you so much, right on the mark!
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