Abortion sources

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budo
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by budo » Thu May 16, 2019 7:10 pm

At what point is the fetus considered living? From fertilization/conception? So would the morning after pill (Levonorgestrel) be considered murder? What if the couple doesn't know that they have a baby, say a condom broke and they took the morning after pill right away, as a just in case measure, is that murder as well?

Thanks!

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Will
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:40 pm
Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 pm

The modern focus of many lay Buddhist folk on developmental stage of the baby in the womb misses the bigger point. Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes, thus the bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream.
Hi Will
From a Theravada doctrinal perspective is "Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes" correct? What do you mean by stream? And do you mean that "bad kamma" is accrued by interrupting the life stream of an other rather than ones own volition?
By 'stream' is meant, according to Ven. Narada Mahathera, stream of consciousness:
There is no being or permanent entity in Buddhism, but there is a stream of consciousness. It is more correct to say that this stream of consciousness is purified by overthrowing all defilements.
I do not understand your wording of the second question. All kamma produces bad or good effects from the will or intention, in this case of the killer.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Mr Man
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Mr Man » Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 am

Hi Will
Will wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:17 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:40 pm
Will wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:00 pm

The modern focus of many lay Buddhist folk on developmental stage of the baby in the womb misses the bigger point. Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes, thus the bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream.
Hi Will
From a Theravada doctrinal perspective is "Human life is a stream over many samsaric lifetimes" correct? What do you mean by stream? And do you mean that "bad kamma" is accrued by interrupting the life stream of an other rather than ones own volition?
By 'stream' is meant, according to Ven. Narada Mahathera, stream of consciousness:
There is no being or permanent entity in Buddhism, but there is a stream of consciousness. It is more correct to say that this stream of consciousness is purified by overthrowing all defilements.
So are there many individual streams of consciousness?
Will wrote:I do not understand your wording of the second question. All kamma produces bad or good effects from the will or intention, in this case of the killer.
Okay when you said " bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream."

Are you saying one life stream is interrupting another life stream? Is one life stream putting "negative, sorrowful kamma-phala" into another life stream and as a result of interrupting the life stream of another "bad kamma" is accrued?

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robertk
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by robertk » Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm

budo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:10 pm
At what point is the fetus considered living? From fertilization/conception? So would the morning after pill (Levonorgestrel) be considered murder? What if the couple doesn't know that they have a baby, say a condom broke and they took the morning after pill right away, as a just in case measure, is that murder as well?

Thanks!
it is a grey area. The conception might not have occurred yet, and I think the morning after pill stops conception.
However it also is strong enough , as I understand it, that it might interrupt the process also after conception.

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Will
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 am

So are there many individual streams of consciousness?

Okay when you said " bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream."

Are you saying one life stream is interrupting another life stream? Is one life stream putting "negative, sorrowful kamma-phala" into another life stream and as a result of interrupting the life stream of another "bad kamma" is accrued?
Yes, individual streams. Bhavananga is also translated as life-consciousness. It is a very deep, even sub-conscious sort of consciousness.

What I meant was both. The killer and any who assist in the killing have added to their life-consciousness streams of afflictions. But also the life-stream of the baby's kamma is complicated in some way - how I do not know. I do not think bad kamma is 'put into' or transferred into another, but it surely 'interrupts' it.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Mr Man
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Mr Man » Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 pm

Will wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:40 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:44 am

So are there many individual streams of consciousness?

Okay when you said " bad kamma has more to do with interrupting that stream & putting much negative, sorrowful kamma-phala into that life stream."

Are you saying one life stream is interrupting another life stream? Is one life stream putting "negative, sorrowful kamma-phala" into another life stream and as a result of interrupting the life stream of another "bad kamma" is accrued?
Yes, individual streams. Bhavananga is also translated as life-consciousness. It is a very deep, even sub-conscious sort of consciousness.

What I meant was both. The killer and any who assist in the killing have added to their life-consciousness streams of afflictions. But also the life-stream of the baby's kamma is complicated in some way - how I do not know. I do not think bad kamma is 'put into' or transferred into another, but it surely 'interrupts' it.
Hi Will
So there is an individual consciousness, which is called Bhavanga, that continues from life to life. I don't think that this is a Theravada teaching.
Will wrote:The modern focus of many lay Buddhist folk on developmental stage of the baby in the womb misses the bigger point
I'm not sure that it does. It seems to correlate with this that you provided earlier
Human being means: from the mind’s first arising, from (the time of) consciousness becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death, here meanwhile he is called a human being.
At what point that actually occurs is not, as far as I know, clearly stated in the suttas & commentaries.

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Will
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Fri May 17, 2019 10:01 pm

Mr Man,

If you study the Abhidhamma work translated by Narada Mahathera or the revision by Bhikkhu Bodhi you will find bhavanga & bhavangasota as part of Buddha's higher or more difficult teachings.

Others here can probably provide sutta quotes on rebirth of the entity occurring at conception.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Mr Man
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Mr Man » Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm

Will wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:01 pm
Mr Man,

If you study the Abhidhamma work translated by Narada Mahathera or the revision by Bhikkhu Bodhi you will find bhavanga & bhavangasota as part of Buddha's higher or more difficult teachings.

Others here can probably provide sutta quotes on rebirth of the entity occurring at conception.
Hi Will

Yes bhavanga is a form of consciousness which is taught in abhidhamma, of which I have little knowledge but I do not believe if refers to a form of consciousness that bridges many lives. I believe it is associated with one life.

Perhaps someone who is more learned in abhidhamma can help.

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Will
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Re: Abortion sources

Post by Will » Sat May 18, 2019 12:18 am

Mr Man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm
Will wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:01 pm
Mr Man,

If you study the Abhidhamma work translated by Narada Mahathera or the revision by Bhikkhu Bodhi you will find bhavanga & bhavangasota as part of Buddha's higher or more difficult teachings.

Others here can probably provide sutta quotes on rebirth of the entity occurring at conception.
Hi Will

Yes bhavanga is a form of consciousness which is taught in abhidhamma, of which I have little knowledge but I do not believe if refers to a form of consciousness that bridges many lives. I believe it is associated with one life.

Perhaps someone who is more learned in abhidhamma can help.
You may be right that bhavanga-consciousness only rises & disappears during life. After death the citta is given another function and name, but whatever function or name the stream is a type of citta. Cannot copy from the Bhikkhu Bodhi PDF, so will see what Narada's earlier version says.
18. Pañisandhi, literally, means re-linking.
The type of consciousness one experiences at the moment
of conception is termed pañisandhi citta. It is so called
because it links the past with the present.

This pañisandhi citta, also termed ‘rebirth-consciousness’,
is conditioned by the powerful thought one experiences
at the dying moment, and is regarded as the source
of the present life stream. In the course of one particular
life there is only one pañisandhi citta. The mental contents
of bhavanga, which later arises an infinite number of times
during one’s lifetime, and of cuti, which arises only once at
the final moment of death, are identical with those of
pañisandhi.
19. Bhavanga. Bhava + anga = factor of life, or
indispensable cause or condition of existence.
One experiences only one thought-moment at any
particular time. No two thought-moments coexist.
Each thought-moment hangs on to some kind of
object. No consciousness arises without an object, either
mental or physical.
When a person is fast asleep and is in a dreamless
state he experiences a kind of consciousness which is more
or less passive than active. It is similar to the consciousness
one experiences at the initial moment of conception and at
the final moment of death. This type of consciousness is in
Abhidhamma termed bhavaïga. Like any other consciousness
it also consists of three aspects—genesis (uppàda),
static (ñhiti) and cessation (bhaïga). Arising and perishing
every moment it flows on like a stream
not remaining the
same for two consecutive moments.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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