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Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:14 pm
by clw_uk
Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?




Metta

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:06 pm
by Mawkish1983
I'm certainly no expert but I wouldn't say kamma is the cause of anicca per se. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are just how things are, irrespective of volition.

I might, of course, be wrong :)

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:59 pm
by tiltbillings
clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this
According to the suttas sickness might be the result of kamma, but it might not be. Everything that happens to us is not always kamma.
Is kamma the cause of anicca?
No.
Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?
No.

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:18 pm
by tiltbillings
Mawkish1983 wrote:I'm certainly no expert but I wouldn't say kamma is the cause of anicca per se. Anicca, dukkha and anatta are just how things are, irrespective of volition.

I might, of course, be wrong :)

So we all might be, but you certainly are not.

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:12 pm
by clw_uk
Thanks both :)

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:39 am
by tiltbillings
clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?
Where are these ideas coming from?

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:25 am
by appicchato
clw_uk wrote:...a result of kamma (as well as ageing?)...
Irrespective of the volitional actions we choose to make in life...skillful, unskillful, or otherwise...we're still going to age...

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:02 pm
by Mawkish1983
appicchato wrote:...we're still going to age...
Such is the nature of the marks of existence/dhamma seals.

I was recently asked 'why is there suffering?'. I explained about tanha and the four noble truthes, but that wasn't what the questionner was asking. They wanted to know why suffering as an objective concept should exist at all (they were Christians and so had their own theories about a god punishing for original sin etc, which still avoids the question as far as I can tell but I didn't fancy going into theology with this asker). In the end, when asked 'why is there suffering' I had to answer, 'there just is' (first noble truth). I explained that the reason isn't important, the erradication of suffering is the important bit but they couldn't accept that.

Anyway, just thought I'd share :)

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:27 pm
by clw_uk
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Greetings

In the Classical Theravada, as far as i understand, beings get born into realms and then pass away according to kamma. They also have sickness as a result of kamma (as well as ageing?) so my question is this

Is kamma the cause of anicca?

Or is it Ignorance (which leads on through D.O.)?
Where are these ideas coming from?

I was listening to a talk by Ven. Munindo that went into discussion on rebirth as a deva etc and it got me thinking how in that cosmology kamma seems to drive change through passing away and being reborn so I posted here to see if that is the cause but on reflection i can see how other factors come into play there

metta

Re: Kamma and Anicca

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:12 pm
by kc2dpt
Mawkish1983 wrote:I was recently asked 'why is there suffering?'. I explained about tanha and the four noble truthes, but that wasn't what the questionner was asking. They wanted to know why suffering as an objective concept should exist at all
One might as well ask why color or temperature or smell exist at all. There is no why other than the answer you already gave: craving. Suffering exists because of craving. If there was no craving then there would be no suffering. Period.

I agree that answering "why does X concept exist?" with "because G-d wills it to be so" is really no answer at all since the obvious follow up question ("why does G-d exist") doesn't ever get answered.