Rebirth in clasical theravada

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Ben
I am going to edit this in a moment or two but Are the notes in "in the buddhas words"? I have that and MN!

Just going to look on a sutta study site from Australia where the suttas tend to have the notes from bodhi when available so will get the links for a quick look if they are the same ones.
Edit
http://www.vgweb.org/sutta/m74.pdf
They don't have MN60

Ben wrote:Hi Jechbi

Have a look at the following:
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta: The Incontrovertible Teaching
and...
MN 74: Dighanakha Sutta: To Dighanakha

These probably represent the tip of the iceberg but they are two I have been reading today.

If you don't have Ven Bodhi's translation, please let me know and I'll transcribe the notes.
Metta

Ben
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote: It is a private group so I cant unfortunately.
Perhaps you could give some quotations. It seems a little pointless to mention that someone has some opinion without explaining it...

I really have no idea what you are getting at when you say:
"A person there seems to hold an almost Mahayana Bodhisattva vow view of the importance of rebirth."
Do you just mean that s/he thinks that accepting rebirth is an absolutely essential part of the Path, or is the comparison with Mahayana Bodhisattva vows supposed to have some particular significance?

Metta
Mike

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

No problems... I was hoping it might provide some context, but that's okay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro
The group is small but very active, but it is closed and I think by invite only, I don't think you can just apply to join either?
I used the Boddhisatta/Tulku references to help with context as that is probably the closest that I know of to how strongly this belief is being expressed without the Mahayana overtones.
But I Think I have grasped enough from some of the posts to be able to say I see.

Got to edit one post
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi Manapa
They're in A translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. I don't known whether they're in In the Buddha's Words as I don't yet own a copy of that volume.
I'm in the middle of transcribing the notes to MN 60.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

I Have just edited the last postt but here is the link to MN74
http://www.vgweb.org/sutta/m74.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WM
Manapa
Ben wrote:Hi Manapa
They're in A translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. I don't known whether they're in In the Buddha's Words as I don't yet own a copy of that volume.
I'm in the middle of transcribing the notes to MN 60.
Metta

Ben
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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kc2dpt
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by kc2dpt »

Jechbi wrote:What is the classical Theravada position with regard to how one goes about adopting a view that might conflict with views one has had for a long time, perhaps even for many lifetimes? What is the method for adopting this right view?
And excellent question! In short, I'm not sure.
I had thought that the correct method to address this type of phenomenon would be:
1) To recognize any such thoughts as not right view.
2) To continue with the practices of right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, right concentration, right intention, and right view to the best of one's ability, recognizing that right view has not been perfected, and that in fact none of these practices has been perfected.
3) And as a result of applying all of these practices, right view will develop according to kamma.
Seems like a good approach. The important part there seems to be "recognizing that right view has not been perfected". For example, I still pursue sensual pleasures (TV, food, etc.), but I recognize this is not in accord with the Buddha's teachings, that it is a result of a defiled mind, and I keep my eyes open for insights that will help loosen my attachment to these defiled thoughts. In a similar way, a person can recognize their wrong view as wrong, the product of defilements, and strive to find ways to loosen attachments to that wrong view.

What we find a lot of on these forums are people who insist wrong view is actually right, that the Buddha didn't actually teach rebirth. When I argue with these people, it is not with the hope that they will suddenly change their view, but only that they will recognize their "view has not yet been perfected".
But I wonder if this approach is in line with classical Theravada thought, because an argument seems to be made that the correct method for adopting right view regarding rebirth is to simply accept it, regardless of whether one believes it.
Maybe we can differentiate between "adopting a view" which is an active choice and "believing" which is a passive result of past conditions? I'll think about it. What I do know is the Buddha teaches belief, view, faith all arise due to conditions. And I seem to recall the conditions for right view arising is to associate with good people and hear the true Dhamma; the arising of faith is to associate with good people and observe their behavior is free from greed, hatred, and delusion; the arising of conviction comes from seeing for oneself that the Path leads where the Buddha says it leads.

I think it's important to remember the goal is not to see that rebirth is true. The goal is to see that adopting right view, which includes the view of rebirth, leads to the ending of suffering.
To me that seems like putting the cart before the horse, although I stand to be corrected.
Maybe we can think of our beliefs as products of the defilements and adopting right view as part of the path to eradicating the defilements. After all, we cultivate the path in order to eradicate the defilements. It is not the case that we first eliminate the defilements and only then start cultivating the path.

Anyway, this is a good question and I don't have any definite answers. If this post seems rambling and confused it's because it is. :rolleye:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Manapa wrote: I used the Boddhisatta/Tulku references to help with context as that is probably the closest that I know of to how strongly this belief is being expressed without the Mahayana overtones.
But that's why I'm so confused, because those are Mahayana overtones. :shrug:

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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi all

Please find attached a word document containing the notes to Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Namamoli's translation of MN 60: The Incontrovertible Teaching. I transcribed these notes for the benefit of those who do not have access to The middle length discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya by the venerables published by Wisdom.

The attached document is in RTF as the system doesn't like docx file format! Any typographical errors are my own.
Metta

Ben
Attachments
MN 60 Notes.rtf
(53.07 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ben,

I'm posting a PDF version of your file, in case that's helpful to someone...

The introduction by Thanissaro Bhikkhu to his translation of MN60 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is also quite helpful.

Metta
Mike
Attachments
MN 60 Notes.pdf
(87.13 KiB) Downloaded 117 times

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:But is it important to the path?
the unshakable belief that it actually happens, so much so that you go out looking for the evidence ie tulkus, or the stories that abound of children remembering their past lives.
is it that important to the path in the clasical sense?
If a person's faith in rebirth rests upon evidence of this sort, then I suppose reading Ian Stevenson books and the like will be important to him. In practice, however, my impression is that there are very few Buddhists whose faith in rebirth is of this sort.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Ben,

I'm posting a PDF version of your file, in case that's helpful to someone...

The introduction by Thanissaro Bhikkhu to his translation of MN60 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is also quite helpful.

Metta
Mike
Thanks Mike

I'm a selective luddite!
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Mike, Ben, Dhammanando &All
I didn't even think of A2I for any notes etc, but then again I only ever look on their for Agahn Geoffs Esseys or the Suttas but the sutta study pdf is on page 2 of MN74 if you are interested!

I will have a look at the Rtf file this afternoon after work,

and Thanks Dhammanando probably the better reason than the strictly clasical one I thoughtit was, there I co making ass u me

WM
Manapa
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Jechbi
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Jechbi »

Peter wrote: And I seem to recall the conditions for right view arising is to associate with good people and hear the true Dhamma
Thanks, Peter. Nice post.

One reason I appreciate rebirth discussions is that they seem to orbit around the notion of samma ditthi. One reason I'm sometimes frustrated with rebirth discussions is that they often fail to touch down on the notion of samma ditthi. But this seems to be the crucial, underlying question: What are the causes and conditions of samma ditthi? I think it's worthwhile to examine our assumptions about this in rebirth discussions, particularly if we regard the faithful acceptance of pm rebirth as a form of samma ditthi.

If there's a sutta or commentarial reference to the quote above, I hope someone can paste it here.

:namaste:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by cooran »

Jechbi asked: What are the causes and conditions of samma ditthi?
Right view
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"
"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
"And assisted by how many factors does right view have awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward?"
"Assisted by five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward. There is the case where right view is assisted by virtue, assisted by learning, assisted by discussion, assisted by tranquility, assisted by insight. Assisted by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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cooran
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

I've always found Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanations of benefit:

Chapter on Right View (Samma Ditthi) - The Noble Eightfold Path - Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... d.html#ch2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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