attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

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alan...
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by alan... » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:43 pm

daverupa wrote:Yeah, as I had said "This isn't the sub-forum for this kind of thing", but the flippant remark to which I was drawn was low-hanging fruit.

Bad habits, alas.

:toast:
lol. touche'. i like the fruit analogy!

alan...
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by alan... » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:51 pm

alan... wrote:
daverupa wrote:Yeah, as I had said "This isn't the sub-forum for this kind of thing", but the flippant remark to which I was drawn was low-hanging fruit.

Bad habits, alas.

:toast:
lol. touche'. i like the fruit analogy!

nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:44 am

Mr. Grimnasty wrote:The noble disciple has unshakable saddha in the Dhamma; the born-again Christian has unwholesome resolvedness upon (akusala adhimokkha) and attachment to (lobha) the theistic superstition.
Do you think the born-again Christian would agree that he has "unwholesome resolvedness upon superstition" while the "noble disciple has unshakable faith"?
Mr. Grimnasty wrote:The noble disciple has a samsaric heritage sufficiently replete with wisdom
Are you saying samsara makes the saddha wholesome? Then what makes superstition unwholesome?

:anjali:

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:16 am

nibbuti wrote:
Mr. Grimnasty wrote:
Mr. Grimnasty wrote:The noble disciple has a samsaric heritage sufficiently replete with wisdom
Are you saying samsara makes the saddha wholesome? Then what makes superstition unwholesome?

:anjali:
I think mr grimmnasty is referring to the pali term, often used in the texts, pubbekatapunnata, merit done/accumulayed in past lives. And that merit includes wisdom .

nibbuti
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by nibbuti » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:24 am

robertk wrote:I think mr grimmnasty is referring to the pali term, often used in the texts, pubbekatapunnata, merit done/accumulayed in past lives. And that merit includes wisdom .
Thanks robertk.

And how is wisdom included in hypothetical "merit done/accumulated in past lives" more "wholesome" than wisdom included in hypothetical "theistic superstition" (Mr Grimnasty)?

:anjali:

vinasp
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by vinasp » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:33 am

Hi everyone,

I disagree with those who say that the Sutta's clearly teach literal rebirth, and that
the 'psychological' interpretation is a modern perversion. Consider the following quote,
from, What the Buddha Taught, by Walpola Rahula, page 33:

"When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O Bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay
and die." (note 1)

"Note 1. Prmj.I(PTS), p.78.'Khandhesu jayamanesu jiyamanesu miyamanesu ca khane khane
tvam bhikkhu jayase ca jiyase ca miyase ca.' This is quoted in the Paramatthajotika
Commentary as the Buddha's own words. So far I have not been able to trace this passage
back to its original text."

[Oh, embarrassment. I hit edit rather than reply and did not catch it until I edited out part of vinasp's comments on the above, as I was composing my brilliant response to this. Please forgive me my clumsy mistake, vinasp, and please repost the above with your comments. -- tilt, the clumsy.]

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Alex123
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by Alex123 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:02 pm

robertk wrote:I think mr grimmnasty is referring to the pali term, often used in the texts, pubbekatapunnata, merit done/accumulayed in past lives. And that merit includes wisdom .
pubbekatapuññata seems to literally say merit (puñña) done (kata) in the past (pubbe). Where does past life figure into it?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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robertk
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:43 pm

the causes for insight of vipassana to arise , and beyond, are:
vis. xiv
they are
nevertheless distinguishable in five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery
of scriptures, hearing, questioning, and prior effort. [..]. Mastery of scriptures is mastery of the Buddha’s word.
Hearing is learning the Dhamma carefully and attentively. Questioning is
discussion of knotty passages and explanatory passages in the texts,
commentaries, and so on. Prior effort is devotion to insight in the dispensation of
former Buddhas,
up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-oflineage
by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject
on alms round] and coming back [with it].
29. Others have said:
A prior effort, and great knowledge,
[Knowledge of] dialects, of scriptures,
And questioning, and then achievement,
And likewise waiting on a teacher,
Success in friends—these are conditions
Productive of discriminations.

SarathW
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:58 pm

robertk wrote:
in reality one does not need to know anything about rebirth at all. one can simply practice the dhamma, see through reality bit by bit and eventually enter nibbana never knowing a thing about rebirth being real or not
Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma). . It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
To attian Nibbana one should undestand four noble truths whic include Kamma and rebirth:

These four truths are:
1.the truth of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of existence;
2.the truth that repeated rebirth and misery are rooted in self-illusion and craving for existence;
3.the truth that through the extinction of all self-illusion vanity, and craving, deliverance from all rebirth will be attained;
4.the truth that the eightfold path, based on right understanding, is the path leading to this goal.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

alan...
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by alan... » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:30 am

SarathW wrote:
robertk wrote:
in reality one does not need to know anything about rebirth at all. one can simply practice the dhamma, see through reality bit by bit and eventually enter nibbana never knowing a thing about rebirth being real or not
Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana , meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma). . It is also called kankhavitarana visuddhi ( Escape from all Doubt Purification- one no longer doubts truths like kamma or rebirth)
To attian Nibbana one should undestand four noble truths whic include Kamma and rebirth:

These four truths are:
1.the truth of the impermanency, unsatisfactoriness and impersonality of existence;
2.the truth that repeated rebirth and misery are rooted in self-illusion and craving for existence;
3.the truth that through the extinction of all self-illusion vanity, and craving, deliverance from all rebirth will be attained;
4.the truth that the eightfold path, based on right understanding, is the path leading to this goal.
Do you have a canon quote where the truths are described like this?

SarathW
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Re: attain nibbana without knowing about kamma and rebirth

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:28 am

Hi Alan
I got this info from a trusted source. I have no reason to doubt it with my own knowledge.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el202.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I get my information from third party sources and do not have a direct access to suttas. Sorry. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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