Mind and mind-object

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paul
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by paul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:42 pm

Wise attention is the analytical path of choosing between mind states of opposing characteristics, rather than the synthetic one of seeing relationships.

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DooDoot
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:17 pm

shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
Attention is part of Name and Form.
Does this mean attention (manasikara) is part of 'nama-rupa' ('mentality-materiality')?
Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
:alien:
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
One has to apply one's faculties
Which faculties? "Self faculties"? "Name faculties" or "mental faculties"? What is a "name faculty"? What is a "self/one's" faculties"? :shrug:
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
and common sense to try to understand what the Buddha meant.
How is "name-form" understood via common sense? Does common sense say "attention is part of name-form"? If the mind silently pays attention, is this part of "name"? Under common sense, what exactly does "name" mean? :shrug:
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
If you meditate, as we should
Does the "self" ("you"/"we") meditate? Or does the mind (consciousness & mentality) meditate? :shrug:
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
the sequence of thought generation, attention, discrimination, action are seen clearly.
In the arising of suffering, in Dependent Origination?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
Expand these functions through awareness and you will see how you generate good and bad Karma through one's decisions. Ancient texts and translations have to be seen and understood through one's experience.
So where in the sequence of Dependent Origination is "kamma" created? Also, many suttas (such as SN 12.12 and SN 12.17) appear to not say "you" create kamma. Is there an inherent or underlying "self" ("you") that creates kamma?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
Anything that comes into mind's view outside of direct contact from the 5 senses is a mind object.
Sure. But wasn't it previously posted only "thoughts" are mind-objects?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
For example, if I see a tree with my eyes
For example, when consciousness & mentality "see" a tree with the eyes.
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
it is an eye object, producing eye-consciousness.
And?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
If I close my eyes and visualize the tree, it is a mind-object, producing mind-object consciousness.
Yes. And?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
See mind-objects coming up as thoughts and images during your meditations as either wholesome or unwholesome.
Thoughts, and feeling, perceptions, defilements, jhanas, Nibbana, etc.
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
Then root out unwholesome mind-objects and dwell on wholesome mind-objects, to strengthen the mind from defilements.
What mental faculties (mentality) root out defilements? Does "name" root out defilements? Does consciousness root out defilements? Do defilements occur before thoughts (and other "sankhara") or after thoughts?
shivap@cox.net wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm
If you have an angry thought about an incident, reimagine it with you being compassionate and forgiving, seeing the other with compassion. That way the unwholesome mind-object contemplation becomes wholesome. Keep it simple, and let your own enlightening process be your guide.
What does this reimagining? "Name"? Does "name" reimagine? Is "attention" part of this reimagining? Does attention engage in wise attention rather than unwise attention? How does "name" pay attention? How does "name" forgive? :shrug:
paul wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:42 pm
Wise attention is the analytical path of choosing between mind states of opposing characteristics, rather than the synthetic one of seeing relationships.
Where does the Dependent Origination theory refer to analytical attention? :shrug:

justindesilva
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by justindesilva » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:07 am

shivap@cox.net wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:09 pm
I think of mind-objects are thoughts in their various subtle and gross forms, or mental images. These originate from seeded memory in the Sankhara formation and appear as mind-objects in consciousness. Attention and discrimination by consciousness towards these mind-objects, similar in nature to perceived external objects through the other 5 sense doors, results in action. A purer consciousness will be a better judge as to what action to take, an impure one not so good. That is why controlling and choosing thoughts carefully is important in life. Bad formations will become atrophied by not picking up and acting on bad thoughts, conversely good formations will be made stronger by acting on them. In meditation just watch your thoughts carefully, as they are the best indication of whether your mind is like a volcano spewing out lava or like a calm ocean with occasional waves.
Quite recently a girl ( about 4 years) out of past birth experience explained this question in her own unique manner. She told her father, now I call you Dad. My mother calls you ' hey'. My grand ma calls you ' my son '
and explained how various other people call her dad as their mind object. This example shows that the mind object is identified by the interest of perceptions whether this is life or any other object . It also shows the difference of self and not self.
This also explsins as quoted that mind objects are thougts in their subtle form . The same mind object may mean different to various other people depending on their perceptual interests. This also explains that mind object will be analysed by the mind depending on moral standards based on lobha, dosa, moha .

2600htz
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by 2600htz » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:29 am

Hello:

Why make it complicated.
Mind-objects are thoughts :).

Regards.

James Tan
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by James Tan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:57 am

2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:29 am
Hello:

Why make it complicated.
Mind-objects are thoughts :).

Regards.
So, does the mind itself is equivalent to the sense of awareness / functionality of the brain ? The thought is the object of awareness ?
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:27 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:29 am
Why make it complicated.
Mind-objects are thoughts :).
:thumbsup:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

arunam
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by arunam » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:23 pm

[108 dhamma similes by ajahn Chah]

Catching a Lizard

The way to focus your mind on an object, to catch hold of the object, is to acquaint yourself with your mind and to acquaint yourself with your objects. It's like the way men catch a lizard. The lizard lies inside the hollow of a termite's nest with six holes. The men close off five of the holes, leaving just one hole for the lizard to come out. Then they sit there watching that one hole. When the lizard comes out, they can catch it.

You focus on the mind in just the same way. Close off your eyes, close off your ears, close off your nose, close off your tongue, close off your body, and leave just the mind open. In other words, exercise restraint over your senses and focus just on the mind.

Meditation is like men catching a lizard. You focus your mind on the breath, being mindful and careful to be aware. Whatever you're doing, be alert to what you're doing. The feeling that arises in the mind at that moment is that you're alert to what you're doing. That feeling is what makes you aware.
A path is made by walking on it

Dinsdale
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:29 am

arunam wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:23 pm
[108 dhamma similes by ajahn Chah]
Catching a Lizard

...You focus on the mind in just the same way. Close off your eyes, close off your ears, close off your nose, close off your tongue, close off your body, and leave just the mind open. In other words, exercise restraint over your senses and focus just on the mind.

.... You focus your mind on the breath, being mindful and careful to be aware....
This seems rather contradictory, since when you focus on the breath you are focusing on the bodily sensations of breathing, rather than on the mind itself.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:30 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:57 am
The thought is the object of awareness ?
Yes, thoughts here are equivalent to sights, sounds, odours etc., just objects arising at the sense bases.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

arunam
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by arunam » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:29 am

This seems rather contradictory, since when you focus on the breath you are focusing on the bodily sensations of breathing, rather than on the mind itself.
I think, concentrating on the breath is how we close of the five holes. When the mind becomes unified in jhana we can catch the
mind objects.
A path is made by walking on it

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one_awakening
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by one_awakening » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:04 am

2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:29 am
Why make it complicated.
Mind-objects are thoughts :).
Sometimes we over-analyze



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Dinsdale
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:01 am

arunam wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:29 am

This seems rather contradictory, since when you focus on the breath you are focusing on the bodily sensations of breathing, rather than on the mind itself.
I think, concentrating on the breath is how we close of the five holes. When the mind becomes unified in jhana we can catch the
mind objects.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just pay attention to the mind, as in the third frame of satipatthana? Or to just notice thoughts as they arise?

Paying attention to the bodily sensations of breathing seem like a distraction to those activities.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:16 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:04 am
2600htz wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:29 am
Why make it complicated.
Mind-objects are thoughts :).
Sometimes we over-analyze
I'll have to think about that.... :thinking: :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

arunam
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Re: Mind and mind-object

Post by arunam » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:06 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:01 am


Wouldn't it be simpler to just pay attention to the mind, as in the third frame of satipatthana? Or to just notice thoughts as they arise?

Paying attention to the bodily sensations of breathing seem like a distraction to those activities.

The four frames of satipatthana are not mutually exclusive. When one is there rest of the three is there.

[This is given in the Nettippakarana]

When someone abides contemplating the body as a body the Four foundations of mindfulness come to fulfilment.
When the Four foundations of mindfulness are kept in being Four right exertions come to fulfilment.
When the Four fright exertions are kept in being Four bases of power come to fulfilment.
When the Four Bases of power are kept in being five faculties come to fulfilment.
When the Five faculties are kept in being Five powers come to fulfilment.
When the Five powers are kept in being Seven factors of enlightenment come to fulfilment.
When the Seven factors of enlightenment are kept in being Noble eightfold path come to fulfilment.
A path is made by walking on it

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