Vibhaṅga and Conception

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Ceisiwr
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Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

In relation to another thread I was reading the vibhaṅga in relation to this passage on conception:
At the moment of conception in the element of desire, in whom are seven sense-bases apparent? In womb gestated beings, at the moment of conception seven sense-bases are apparent, (viz.) visible sense-base, odorous sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. At the moment of conception in the element of desire these seven sense-bases are apparent in these (beings). (2)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila

Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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DooDoot
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by DooDoot »

The Abhidhamma Vibhanga is not the Vinaya Vibhanga, here. :smile:
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:52 am
Note that when Ven. Thanissaro refers to the "Vibhaṅga", he doesn't mean the Abhidhamma's Vibhaṅga but rather the Vibhaṅga (sometimes called the Suttavibhaṅga) of the Vinaya Piṭaka.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:14 pm
Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
Yes. The description is of what is cognizable about an embryo, not what an embryo cognizes.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:14 pm
Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
Yes. The description is of what is cognizable about an embryo, not what an embryo cognizes.
Ah I see. Thank you Bhante.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:14 pm
Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
Yes. The description is of what is cognizable about an embryo, not what an embryo cognizes.
A further question Bhante. If that is so, then where in the Abhidhamma or commentaries does it state that a living being is there at the moment of conception? This is what initially brought up that Vb passage.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:14 pm
Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
Yes. The description is of what is cognizable about an embryo, not what an embryo cognizes.
Going back to this, it does seem it is talking about what the embryo cognises. I notice for womb beings it omits the ear base, presumably because the Vb thinks there is no sound in the womb, but for gods they have the sound base, femininity or masculinity and others "at the moment of conception". It does read as if in reference to what the new being experiences/senses it has. Is this a translation issue from suttacentral?
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Dhammanando
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:58 pm
Going back to this, it does seem it is talking about what the embryo cognises.
You may be right. I think perhaps I'd better let Rob field these questions. It's a long time since I last studied the rebirth process and I'm very rusty on it.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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robertk
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by robertk »

Hi all,
Ven. Dhammanando's replies are definitely the most considered and reliable - but tommorow I will look up the texts and try to format an opinion.
Robert

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Ceisiwr »

robertk wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:09 pm
Hi all,
Ven. Dhammanando's replies are definitely the most considered and reliable - but tommorow I will look up the texts and try to format an opinion.
Robert
Thanks
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Volo
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by Volo »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:14 pm
Greetings everyone,

In relation to another thread I was reading the vibhaṅga in relation to this passage on conception:
At the moment of conception in the element of desire, in whom are seven sense-bases apparent? In womb gestated beings, at the moment of conception seven sense-bases are apparent, (viz.) visible sense-base, odorous sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base. At the moment of conception in the element of desire these seven sense-bases are apparent in these (beings). (2)
https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila

Can this be reconciled with what we know of embryonic development, since at the moment of conception there are no physical sense bases?
I think the text is taking about cakkhupasāda, ghānapasāda, etc. They are not the same as, say, retina + optical nerve + part of the brain which perceives sights (or whatever is scientific view on the seeing process). Retina, etc are (if I understand it correctly) octad kalapas, while cakkhupasāda is a part of cakkhudasaka decade kalapas. Retina, etc are gross materiality, cakkhupasāda - subtle. Some people compare them to hardware and software.

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robertk
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by robertk »

For rebirth to occur in the human and animal realms there must be present suitable rupa i.e, the mix of egg from mother and matter from father. Once these are present the rebirth consciousness can arise there.

Of course at this first stage of life the embryo is rather small:
Vis. CHAPTER XVII
151. The least decads the first has got respectively are three or two: together with the
rebirth-linking consciousness that is mixed with materiality and comes first in
the pair “mixed and unmixed,” there arise, at the least, the two decads (see
18.5f.) of physical basis and body, or else the three decads of physical basis, body,
and sex. There is no reducing the materiality below that.
152. But when that minimal amount arises in the two kinds of generation
termed egg-born and womb-born, it amounts to no more than a drop of cream of
ghee on a single fibre of new-born [kid’s] wool, and it is known as the “embryo
in the first stage”
(S I 206).
Now about the materiality which include the sense bases.
As ven. Dhammanando and volo have said/implied these are very tiny and subtle at anytime . And the eyebase, for example, at this stage does not have the surrounding 'eye' , eye socket and eyelids etc.
Could there be any actual seeing consciousness at this early stage with only this - I couldn't dig up a reference to say yes or no, but I only had a quick look.
In any event - according to the texts - it seems that the pasada rupas are indeed present from birth, but only later , after the embryo grows do eyes, ears etc, which are easily recognisable appear.
vis. CHAPTER XX22. Herein, when materiality is being generated in any
being, it is first generated from kamma. For at the actual moment of rebirthlinking
of a child in the womb, first thirty instances of materiality are generated
in the triple continuity, in other words, the decads of physical [heart-]basis, body,
and sex. And those are generated at the actual instant of the rebirth-linking
consciousness’s arising.
And as at the instant of its arising, so too at the instant
of its presence and at the instant of its dissolution.14

atipattoh
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by atipattoh »

Hi Ceisiwr

Apart from texture explanation, I guess you may be asking when does Viññāṇa of Dolly arise?

Have a look at this Somatic cell nuclear transfer to produce Reproductive and Therapeutic clone cells, see if you can find reconciliation on the most reasonable explanation.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Vibhaṅga and Conception

Post by confusedlayman »

atipattoh wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:13 am
Hi Ceisiwr

Apart from texture explanation, I guess you may be asking when does Viññāṇa of Dolly arise?

Have a look at this Somatic cell nuclear transfer to produce Reproductive and Therapeutic clone cells, see if you can find reconciliation on the most reasonable explanation.
anything that dies during that time and animal relinking conciousness would have come there
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