16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

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DooDoot
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:57 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:57 pm
I doubt what you talk about.
You doubt dependent origination. The Madhupindika Sutta is merely a small fragment of dependent origination.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SDC
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by SDC » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:01 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:00 pm
I am just asking beyond a sutta explanation.
Then you posted in the wrong section of the forum...

This is the Classical Theravada section where texts are considered authoritative. Perhaps have a look around the forum and see what each section is for.

canadianbuddhist
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by canadianbuddhist » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:01 pm

no man. Dependent origination teaching deals with the "samsara dhukkha" (Samsaric suffering) and not the "santana dukkha" (Personal dhukkha). When it comes upakkilesa teaching it is about santana dukkha.

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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:02 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:00 pm
I am just asking beyond a sutta explanation.
You do not appear to be thinking or reflecting about the topic you started. For example, the upakkilesa of issa/envy. You are not thinking about what contributes to envy. Often, multiple defilements may contribute to envy, such as lust, hate & delusion, together. If I envy a man who has a more beautiful wife than me, there are many different types of defilements contributing to that envy. There is lust for a more beautiful wife and there is delusion.
canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 1975 12:05 am
I need to find a connection between 16 upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa roots.
To conclude, MN 7 is about the 16 upakkilesa. Since MN 7 says liberation occurs with the destruction of 3 roots, it appears the 16 upakkilesas arise from the 3 roots.
When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of becoming and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one bathed with the inner bathing.”

MN 7
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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canadianbuddhist
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by canadianbuddhist » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:58 pm

I am asking you to reflect on how a mind gets polluted. Buddha always taught the mind is pure. So mind is polluted by the sanna vipallasa and then lead to lobha, dosa and moha. Your way of thinking is not what we really experience. Paticca samupada teaching is mainly about the samsaric suffering and it is not directly applied here, but still this has cause and effect theory.

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SDC
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by SDC » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:05 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:58 pm
I am asking you to reflect on how a mind gets polluted. Buddha always taught the mind is pure. So mind is polluted by the sanna vipallasa and then lead to lobha, dosa and moha. Your way of thinking is not what we really experience. Paticca samupada teaching is mainly about the samsaric suffering and it is not directly applied here, but still this has cause and effect theory.
For the second time...you posted in a section where texts are considered authoritative, but then you're asking members to discuss it in terms of experience. Please look at the guidelines for each section before you post.

This thread is being moved.

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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:32 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:58 pm
...
Perception does not create defilement. Defilement creates perception. For example, sexual lust does not occur fundamentally from perceiving "beauty". The perception of beauty arises because there are sexual hormones & chemicals that create lust. Thus lust causes the perception of "beauty", from which more or additional lust arises.

For example, small children generally do not lust after the opposite sex. But once children/teenagers reach puberty, they start lusting after & taking a very strong interest in the opposite sex. This change of perception in the teenager is due to an underlying lust or underlying tendency (anusaya).

That is why the Buddha called his liberation the destruction of craving or the destruction of greed, hatred & delusion (rather than the destruction of perception).
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
Regardless, that fact upakkilesa are called "upa" kilesa appears to show they arise from the basic kilesa. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

canadianbuddhist
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by canadianbuddhist » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:37 pm

I am very disappointed to see how you are misleading the true readers. please read this sutta.

The Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN 1, The Root of all things or The Root Sequence) is a Theravada Buddhist discourse which "is one of the deepest and most difficult suttas in the Pali Canon." [1] This discourse analyzes the thinking process of four different types of people and shows how the arising of dukkha is due to an intricate process which begins with perception and can only be ended by insight into the true nature of reality.


"The ordinary process of the untaught world-ling's conception of the world is filled with ignorance and conceptual proliferation (papañca) from the initial moment of sensory perception. This leads to conceiving 'things in' and 'coming out' of whatever he perceives. This refers to how everyone develops views (diṭṭhi) about how things are, how they should be and how they should relate to them, from simple views to complex metaphysical speculations. People also develop conceptions of themselves as having a solid Self, and they also become attached to things when they delight (nandi) in them which leads to craving and clinging. Ordinary people conceive of things by identifying with them, by wanting to possess them, by seeing their self as being contained in them or by seeing their self as being separate from them.[3] This process begins at perception, which is already distorted for the untaught person who conceives and projects self-hood, solidity and expectations into his field of experience.[4] The stage of "conceiving" (mañati) is really a state of cognitive distortion, which is led by the three defilements of craving (taṇhā), conceit (māna), and views (diṭṭhi). It is in this sense that the untaught person is said to be deluded.

This process is an outline of the interdependent arising of suffering in the minds different kinds of people and how this process is counteracted by those who have taken up the teachings of the Buddha. The sutta goes on to elucidate how each other type of person gets closer and closer to the goal of nibbana by knowing things as they are and not delighting and clinging to them. The disciple in the higher training attempts not to conceive of things in a wrong way by not identifying with them and by not clinging to them. He does this by directly knowing things as they are, ie as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. He disciple must be vigilant because he has still not eradicated subtle mental dispositions of clinging.[5] The arahant and the Tathagata are awakened beings and therefore see directly into the truth of reality with no distorted conceptions, having uprooted all trace of the three defilements."




DooDoot wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:32 pm
canadianbuddhist wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:58 pm
...
Perception does not create defilement. Defilement creates perception. For example, sexual lust does not occur fundamentally from perceiving "beauty". The perception of beauty arises because there are sexual hormones & chemicals that create lust. Thus lust causes the perception of "beauty", from which more or additional lust arises.

For example, small children generally do not lust after the opposite sex. But once children/teenagers reach puberty, they start lusting after & taking a very strong interest in the opposite sex. This change of perception in the teenager is due to an underlying lust or underlying tendency (anusaya).

That is why the Buddha called his liberation the destruction of craving or the destruction of greed, hatred & delusion (rather than the destruction of perception).
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
Regardless, that fact upakkilesa are called "upa" kilesa appears to show they arise from the basic kilesa. Regards :smile:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:43 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:37 pm
I am very disappointed to see how you are misleading the true readers. please read this sutta.

The Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN 1, The Root of all things or The Root Sequence) is a Theravada Buddhist discourse which "is one of the deepest and most difficult suttas in the Pali Canon." [1] This discourse analyzes the thinking process of four different types of people and shows how the arising of dukkha is due to an intricate process which begins with perception and can only be ended by insight into the true nature of reality.


"The ordinary process of the untaught world-ling's conception of the world is filled with ignorance and conceptual proliferation (papañca) from the initial moment of sensory perception. This leads to conceiving 'things in' and 'coming out' of whatever he perceives. This refers to how everyone develops views (diṭṭhi) about how things are, how they should be and how they should relate to them, from simple views to complex metaphysical speculations. People also develop conceptions of themselves as having a solid Self, and they also become attached to things when they delight (nandi) in them which leads to craving and clinging. Ordinary people conceive of things by identifying with them, by wanting to possess them, by seeing their self as being contained in them or by seeing their self as being separate from them.[3] This process begins at perception, which is already distorted for the untaught person who conceives and projects self-hood, solidity and expectations into his field of experience.[4] The stage of "conceiving" (mañati) is really a state of cognitive distortion, which is led by the three defilements of craving (taṇhā), conceit (māna), and views (diṭṭhi). It is in this sense that the untaught person is said to be deluded.

This process is an outline of the interdependent arising of suffering in the minds different kinds of people and how this process is counteracted by those who have taken up the teachings of the Buddha. The sutta goes on to elucidate how each other type of person gets closer and closer to the goal of nibbana by knowing things as they are and not delighting and clinging to them. The disciple in the higher training attempts not to conceive of things in a wrong way by not identifying with them and by not clinging to them. He does this by directly knowing things as they are, ie as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. He disciple must be vigilant because he has still not eradicated subtle mental dispositions of clinging.[5] The arahant and the Tathagata are awakened beings and therefore see directly into the truth of reality with no distorted conceptions, having uprooted all trace of the three defilements."




DooDoot wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:32 pm
canadianbuddhist wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:58 pm
...
Perception does not create defilement. Defilement creates perception. For example, sexual lust does not occur fundamentally from perceiving "beauty". The perception of beauty arises because there are sexual hormones & chemicals that create lust. Thus lust causes the perception of "beauty", from which more or additional lust arises.

For example, small children generally do not lust after the opposite sex. But once children/teenagers reach puberty, they start lusting after & taking a very strong interest in the opposite sex. This change of perception in the teenager is due to an underlying lust or underlying tendency (anusaya).

That is why the Buddha called his liberation the destruction of craving or the destruction of greed, hatred & delusion (rather than the destruction of perception).
This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi
Regardless, that fact upakkilesa are called "upa" kilesa appears to show they arise from the basic kilesa. Regards :smile:

Greetings,

Could you provide links for your quotes. Thanks.

Metta

:)
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

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DooDoot
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Re: 16 Upakkilesa and 3 Kilesa Roots

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:06 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:37 pm
The Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN 1, The Root of all things or The Root Sequence) is a Theravada Buddhist discourse which "is one of the deepest and most difficult suttas in the Pali Canon."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%ABla ... 81ya_Sutta
Mūlapariyāya Sutta is not deep at all. Whoever wrote the above appears seriously mistaken. Mūlapariyāya Sutta is very subtle but it is not deep. The Mūlapariyāya Sutta starts from the point of perception (sanna) then discusses imagining (mannati) delusional things from that perception. It is only about two dhammas (sanna & mannati; with associated delight/clinging). It is not "deep" at all; although still very important. But it is not "deep" in respect to psychological processes. What is deep is Dependent Origination; which you have dismissed as being about reincarnation.

What is "deep" is all delusional psychological processes begin with the defilement elements of ignorance (SN 12.2; SN 45.1; AN 10.61; MN 115), underlying tendencies (AN 7.11; MN 64) & asava (MN 9). From these defilement elements arise perceptions (sanna; SN 14.12; MN 9; SN 12.2), as the Buddha taught. Anyone starting Dhamma discussion from a starting point of "perception" does not represent the Buddha-Dhamma. Such perception-clingers often believe a "self" is perceiving. Regardless, such perception-clingers mistakenly believe the mind is arbitrarily creating perceptions; rather than the mind has in-born underlying tendency defilements that pre-determine the range of perceptions.
canadianbuddhist wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:37 pm
"The ordinary process of the untaught world-ling's conception of the world is filled with ignorance and conceptual proliferation (papañca) from the initial moment of sensory perception.
Ideas such as the above are very dangerous because they assume there is a puthujjana (untaught world-ling) or 'self' that is perceiving & conceiving; which easily descends into solipsism & theism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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