Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

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daveblack
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Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by daveblack » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:43 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:19 am
zan wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:34 pm
Does anyone know of any teachers who are classical orthodox Theravada for the most part but reject flux or momentariness?
I don't think it's possible. In classical Theravāda momentarism is a fundamental component of the commentarial apparatus and underscores nearly everything. Even Vinaya rules, for example, get analysed on momentarist presuppositions.

An example from Ajahn Thanissaro's account of the second saṅghādisesa rule (touching a woman with lustful intent):
Intention. The Vibhaṅga explains the term overcome with lust as meaning "impassioned, desiring, a mind bound by attraction." Altered, it says, can refer in general to one of three states of mind — passion, aversion, or delusion — but here it refers specifically to passion.

The Commentary adds a piece of Abhidhamma analysis at this point, saying that altered refers to the moment when the mind leaves its state of pure neutrality in the bhavaṅga under the influence of desire. Thus the factor of intention here can be fulfilled not only by a prolonged or intense feeling of desire, but also by a momentary attraction.
I don't see where from that Thanissaro quote you get the idea that the commentary involves "momentarist presuppositions" in the sense of the theory of ontological momentariness. The statement that the mind has momentarily left its neutral state to enter a state of lust, is a normal statement that anyone could make, without holding the presuppositions of ontological momentariness. In fact, the statement seems to preclude the presuppositions of ontological momentariness, because it seems to suppose the mind to be continually existing and only mind-states to be momentary, which is how regular people understand the mind anyway.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:20 pm

daveblack wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:43 pm
I don't see where from that Thanissaro quote you get the idea that the commentary involves "momentarist presuppositions" in the sense of the theory of ontological momentariness.
That's probably because of the somewhat loose wording in Thanissaro's paraphrase, which might make it appear that the bhavaṅga is a persistent entity when in fact it's conceived by ābhidhammikas as comprising a succession of momentary cittas.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

zan
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Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by zan » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:45 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:19 am
zan wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:34 pm
Does anyone know of any teachers who are classical orthodox Theravada for the most part but reject flux or momentariness?
I don't think it's possible. In classical Theravāda momentarism is a fundamental component of the commentarial apparatus and underscores nearly everything. Even Vinaya rules, for example, get analysed on momentarist presuppositions.

An example from Ajahn Thanissaro's account of the second saṅghādisesa rule (touching a woman with lustful intent):
Intention. The Vibhaṅga explains the term overcome with lust as meaning "impassioned, desiring, a mind bound by attraction." Altered, it says, can refer in general to one of three states of mind — passion, aversion, or delusion — but here it refers specifically to passion.

The Commentary adds a piece of Abhidhamma analysis at this point, saying that altered refers to the moment when the mind leaves its state of pure neutrality in the bhavaṅga under the influence of desire. Thus the factor of intention here can be fulfilled not only by a prolonged or intense feeling of desire, but also by a momentary attraction.
Thank you venerable. Perhaps something as close as possible to this, then? The most orthodox but non flux accepting teachers? Are Ajahn Chah or Ajahn Brahm good possibilities?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:56 pm

zan wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:45 pm
Thank you venerable. Perhaps something as close as possible to this, then? The most orthodox but non flux accepting teachers? Are Ajahn Chah or Ajahn Brahm good possibilities?
Ajahn Brahm is a sutta-based Buddhist who has no liking for the Abhidhamma. He differs from most others of this persuasion by virtue of the fact that his views on contested issues happen to coincide with those of the commentators much more often than is the case with most other sutta-based Buddhists. But I've no idea what he thinks about momentarism.

Ajahn Chah was part of a guru-centric rather than text-centric tradition. Nevertheless he did recommend his monks to read the Visuddhimagga and there are a lot of statements in his talks which seem to indicate an acceptance of momentarism at least in its broad outline
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

zan
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by zan » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:50 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:56 pm
zan wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:45 pm
Thank you venerable. Perhaps something as close as possible to this, then? The most orthodox but non flux accepting teachers? Are Ajahn Chah or Ajahn Brahm good possibilities?
Ajahn Brahm is a sutta-based Buddhist who has no liking for the Abhidhamma. He differs from most others of this persuasion by virtue of the fact that his views on contested issues happen to coincide with those of the commentators much more often than is the case with most other sutta-based Buddhists. But I've no idea what he thinks about momentarism.

Ajahn Chah was part of a guru-centric rather than text-centric tradition. Nevertheless he did recommend his monks to read the Visuddhimagga and there are a lot of statements in his talks which seem to indicate an acceptance of momentarism at least in its broad outline
Thank you Venerable. Do you know of where I might find the Ajahn Chah quotes that may indicate acceptance of momentariness?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:55 am

zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:50 am
Thank you Venerable. Do you know of where I might find the Ajahn Chah quotes that may indicate acceptance of momentariness?
Go to the Ajahn Chah page at Access to Insight.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... index.html

The very last item is a 700-page pdf file of his talks. Just download it and then search for the words 'moment' or 'khaṇika'.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

zan
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Classical, orthodox Theravada teachers who reject flux?

Post by zan » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:42 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:55 am
zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:50 am
Thank you Venerable. Do you know of where I might find the Ajahn Chah quotes that may indicate acceptance of momentariness?
Go to the Ajahn Chah page at Access to Insight.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... index.html

The very last item is a 700-page pdf file of his talks. Just download it and then search for the words 'moment' or 'khaṇika'.
Thanks very much Venerable!
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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