Sex only for procreation

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Ceisiwr
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Sex only for procreation

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm

Hi,

Is there a Buddhist equivalent of the Christian concept that sex should only be for reproduction? If so would that mean that a homosexual couple or a sterile couple are engaging in sexual misconduct?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:36 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm
Is there a Buddhist equivalent of the Christian concept that sex should only be for reproduction?
Where does such a Christian concept actually exist? :shrug:
a Buddhist equivalent wrote:And why does the brahmin not have sex outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation? Because his brahmin wife is not there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, but only for procreation.

Tassa sā hoti brāhmaṇī neva kāmatthā na davatthā na ratatthā, pajatthāva brāhmaṇassa brāhmaṇī hoti.

Having ensured his progeny through sex, he shaves off his hair and beard, dresses in ocher robes, and goes forth from the lay life to homelessness.

So methunaṃ uppādetvā kesamassuṃ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajati.

When he has gone forth, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.

So evaṃ pabbajito samāno vivicceva kāmehi … pe … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

Having developed these four absorptions :meditate: , when the body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.

So ime cattāro jhāne bhāvetvā kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

That’s how a brahmin is equal to god :twothumbsup: .

Evaṃ kho, doṇa, brāhmaṇo devasamo hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
And how does a brahmin cross the line? :|

And how is a brahmin a brahmin outcaste? :(

His brahmin wife is there for sensual pleasure :shock: , fun, and enjoyment, as well as for procreation.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato
:alien:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm
If so would that mean that a homosexual couple ...
The suttas appear to show the Buddha did not concern himself with the fringe activities of homosexuals.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm
If so would that mean that a homosexual couple or a sterile couple are engaging in sexual misconduct?
The Buddha taught there are at least five realms: (i) godly; (ii) human' (iii) hungry ghost; (iv) animal; (v) hell. If all kamma (conduct) had the same quality, it seems there would not be five realms. In summary, those engaging in sexual misconduct go to the lower realms, per the suttas. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by sentinel » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 pm

The question is what constitute sexual misconduct ?
:coffee:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Ceisiwr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:00 pm

sentinel wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:08 pm
The question is what constitute sexual misconduct ?
Well we have the standard definition, but the above quote seems to suggest that sexual activity should also be limited to only being for reproduction only. An implication of that is that condom use is sexual misconduct.

dharmacorps
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:34 pm

No, I don't believe there is a parallel teaching. In the Pali Canon, Sex is called the practice of common people, or the lay persons practice. It is viewed as a normal part of common people's lives. The obsession with procreation and sacred seed (e.g. Onan, etc) seems to be a Abrahamic religious feature (or in another view, preoccupation/obsession).

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Ceisiwr » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:56 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:34 pm
No, I don't believe there is a parallel teaching. In the Pali Canon, Sex is called the practice of common people, or the lay persons practice. It is viewed as a normal part of common people's lives. The obsession with procreation and sacred seed (e.g. Onan, etc) seems to be a Abrahamic religious feature (or in another view, preoccupation/obsession).
The sutta quoted above seems to suggest that the Buddha recommended sex only for reproductive purposes though?

binocular
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by binocular » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:38 pm

Ceisiwr wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:45 pm
Is there a Buddhist equivalent of the Christian concept that sex should only be for reproduction?
That's not a Christian concept; or, at most, it's a Christian concept only by inference, given the general Christian opposition to abortion (if abortion is wrong and should not be done, that automatically makes all sex (between men and women) procreative).

I once asked about this at a multidenominational Christian forum. I referred to the Vaishnava doctrine that sex is only supposed to be engaged in for the purposes of procreation, and only at a time when the woman is fertile (like in the sutta quoted above). The Christians considered this strange, and some even too restrictive and contrary to the purpose of Christian marriage (which is, supposedly, to enjoy eachother's bodies in "marital embrace" without having to worry about pregnancy). Note that Christians generally do use some form of contraception when engaging in sex, so the concept "sex should only be for reproduction" is alien to them.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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cappuccino
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by cappuccino » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:50 pm

The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.
Vipaka Sutta
whatever would lead to such a result is misconduct

Dan74
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 pm

Most of us have sex for pleasure, not for procreation. And the Buddha had repeatedly counselled that attachment to pleasure was to be abandoned. So attachment to pleasure, whether straight or gay, is to be eventually abandoned. It is also said that it is only uprooted by non-returners, right?

For the rest of us, it seems to me to be sensible to develop some mindfulness around it.
_/|\_

dharmacorps
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:08 am

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:56 pm


The sutta quoted above seems to suggest that the Buddha recommended sex only for reproductive purposes though?
How do you have sex exclusively for reproduction only? without lust? How often does sex result in pregnancy? A minority of the time realistically. The Buddha didn't encourage people to have children. He didn't discourage lay people from having sex unless they wanted to take a more serious commitment to the path and be upasakas, etc.

I don't think the Buddha viewed it as something you could even practice exclusively for procreation. I think he was saying it was the practice of lay people and left it at that.

polo
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by polo » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:48 am

This whole wide world is exploding with new born babies. Populations just keep increasing because everybody is enjoying sex. If this is not true then why is the population exploding? Buddha of course in all his wisdom knew that humankind just cannot go without sex. So he didn't want to waste his time on this subject. You just have to restrain yourself as best you can especially if you want to follow Buddha's teaching.
I remember Buddha did mention that "Oral sex" should be avoid because it is very addictive. If you have studied or done a lot research on Buddha's teaching you would have come across this part of his teaching.
I dont' think Buddha said sex only for procreation. Would Buddha in all his wisdom said such childish thing?
Don't forget Buddha could perceive problem and see beyond the problem, his mind was no ordinary human mind. We are suffering and not enlightened because our mind is holding us back all the time.

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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:34 pm

polo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:48 am
I remember Buddha did mention that "Oral sex" should be avoid because it is very addictive. If you have studied or done a lot research on Buddha's teaching you would have come across this part of his teaching.
This is what the Tibetans say, but they get it from Aśvaghoṣa, not the Buddha.

In the Buddha's teaching on sexual misconduct there are no instructions as to what manner of sexual acts householders should or shouldn't engage in. The sole concern is who they do it with.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:45 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:34 pm
polo wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:48 am
I remember Buddha did mention that "Oral sex" should be avoid because it is very addictive. If you have studied or done a lot research on Buddha's teaching you would have come across this part of his teaching.
This is what the Tibetans say, but they get it from Aśvaghoṣa, not the Buddha.

In the Buddha's teaching on sexual misconduct there are no instructions as to what manner of sexual acts householders should or shouldn't engage in. The sole concern is who they do it with.

What about the sutta quoted above? There the Buddha is advising not only who to have sex with but when and how (vaginal only).

Are there any Theravadin writers/thinkers who have made an argument that sex should only be vaginal and for reproduction only?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:56 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:56 pm


The sutta quoted above seems to suggest that the Buddha recommended sex only for reproductive purposes though?
How do you have sex exclusively for reproduction only? without lust? How often does sex result in pregnancy? A minority of the time realistically. The Buddha didn't encourage people to have children. He didn't discourage lay people from having sex unless they wanted to take a more serious commitment to the path and be upasakas, etc.

I don't think the Buddha viewed it as something you could even practice exclusively for procreation. I think he was saying it was the practice of lay people and left it at that.


Not using condoms for one.

binocular
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Re: Sex only for procreation

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:17 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:08 am
How do you have sex exclusively for reproduction only?
When one wishes to have children.
Think of the way humans control the reproduction of domestic animals, for example.
That doesn't mean every sex act will result in pregnancy, but it means that every sex act is engaged in with the intention to produce children (which informs the when, with whom, and other considerations).

- - -
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 pm
For the rest of us, it seems to me to be sensible to develop some mindfulness around it.
But not too much, of course.

:sage:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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