Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

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JohnK
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Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by JohnK » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:41 pm

If there is a sutta that explains the difference between ignorance (avijja) and delusion (moha), please point me to it.
Thanks.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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Dhammanando
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:19 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:41 pm
If there is a sutta that explains the difference between ignorance (avijja) and delusion (moha), please point me to it.
In the Niddesa, as in the Abhidhamma, avijjā and moha are regarded as synonyms. As far as I know there's no sutta that contradicts this and at least one sutta passage that implicitly supports it:
avijjā h'āyaṃ mahāmoho, yen'idaṃ saṃsitaṃ ciraṃ,
vijjāgatā ca ye sattā, na te gacchanti punabbhavan' ti.

“It is because of ignorance, this great delusion,
that one has wandered on for so long.
But those beings who have gained clear knowledge
do not come back to renewed existence.
Sn 730
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

SarathW
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:55 pm

avijjā: 'ignorance,' nescience, unknowing; synonymous with delusion (moha, s. mūla), is the primary root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the delusion tricking beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure (s. vipallāsa). Ignorance is defined as 'not knowing the four truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its cessation' (S. XII, 4).

abhijjhā: 'covetousness' is a synonym of lobha (s. mūla) and taṇhā (q.v.) and is the 8th link of the unwholesome courses of action (s. kamma-patha, I).

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by JohnK » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:02 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:19 pm

In the Niddesa, as in the Abhidhamma, avijjā and moha are regarded as synonyms...
Many thanks.
:anjali:
SarathW wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:55 pm
avijjā: 'ignorance,' nescience, unknowing; synonymous with delusion (moha, s. mūla),
Many thanks to you, too.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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retrofuturist
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:22 pm

Greetings JohnK,

My understanding is that avijja is the general condition, and moha is the specific instance or manifestation of it.

This is built around the general usage of these terms (specifically, avijja) in the suttas, moreso than any sutta that attempts to differentiate these terms.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

SarathW
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:13 am

This is why Buddha's teaching method is so unique.
In addition to attachment and aversion there are other kind of ignorance.
For instance seven Anusaya.
But interestingly Anusaya got another ignorance.
So what is that ignorance?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by JohnK » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:22 pm
...
My understanding is that avijja is the general condition, and moha is the specific instance or manifestation of it.
...
Thank you, Paul.
After reading the first two replies, I thought that, while they may be synonyms, there might nevertheless be some pattern in their use -- as you suggest.
Certainly the usual English words chosen as translations of each have a bit different angle. Ignorance is about not holding a truth, while delusion is about holding an untruth. Ignorance is often described as ignorance of the Four Truths (not having right view); delusion then would be holding a wrong view. However the Pali terms may or may not carry that same holding/not-holding distinction.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

alfa
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by alfa » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:05 am

Not knowing is ignorance.

Seeing the true as the false (and false as the true) is delusion.

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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:07 am

///////////////////////////////
IGNORANCE
Avijjā
////////////////////////////////
And what, bhikkhus, is ignorance? Not knowing suffering, not knowing the origin of suffering, not knowing the cessation of suffering, not knowing the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
SN 12.2 (parallel in SA)

______

“And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering?

Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering.

“And what is the origin of suffering?

It is craving, which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that; that is, craving for sensual pleasures , craving for being, and craving for non-being. This is called the origin of suffering.

“And what is the cessation of suffering?

It is the remainderless fading away and ceasing, the giving up, relinquishing, letting go, and rejecting of that same craving. This is called the cessation of suffering.

“And what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering?

It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration. This is called the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

MN.9 (parallel in SA)

______

Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling does not understand form subject to arising as it really is thus: 'Form is subject to arising.' He does not understand form subject to vanishing as it has come to be thus: 'Form is subject to vanishing.' He does not understand form subject to arising and vanishing as it really is thus: 'Form is subject to arising and vanishing.' He does not understand feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... , consciousness subject to arising ... subject to vanishing ... subject to arising and vanishing as it really is thus: 'Consciousness is subject to arising and vanishing.'

"This is called ignorance, bhikkhu, and in this way one is immersed in ignorance."

SN 22.126

. ______

Here, friend, the uninstructed worldling does not understand as it has come to be, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of form, feeling (felt experience), perception, formations (synergies), and consciousness. This, friend, is called ignorance, and in this way one is immersed in ignorance.
SN 22.129

. ______

The abandoning both of sensual desires, & of unhappiness, the dispelling of sloth, the warding off of anxieties, equanimity-&-established citta purified, with inspection of phenomena swift in the forefront: That I call the ultimate knowledge of emancipation, the breaking open of ignorance.

Snp 5.13 (or 5.14)

. ______

Determinations (formations/synergies) originate from ignorance, rise from ignorance, come to birth from ignorance and develop with ignorance.
Bhikkhus, when ignorance dispelled and turned out science arises, the bhikkhu does not hold to sensuality, does not hold to views, does not hold to virtues, and does not hold to the self view. Not holding is not worried, not worried, he by himself is extinguished: birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done, there is nothing more to wish.
MN11

. ______

Friend, how many kinds of "becoming" (bhavā) are there? Friend, its threefold: Becoming (existing) with sensuality, with matter and with non-matter. Friend, how does future rebirth come about?
Friend, beings shrouded in ignorance and bound to craving delight here and there, thus comes about rebirth in the future.
Friend, how does future rebirth not come about?
When ignorance is dispelled science arises and craving ceases, thus future rebirth does not come about.
MN43




//////////////////////
MOHA
//////////////////////

(Pali: delusion,bewilderment,infatuation)

In Sanskrit, the root is √ मुह् muh.

- Become stupefied or unconscious, be bewildered or perplexed, err, be mistaken, go astray (Ṛg Veda).
- To stupefy, bewilder, confound, perplex, cause to err or fail (Ṛg Veda).
- To become confused, fail, miscarry (Śathaphana Brāhmaṇa).

Moha:

- Loss of consciousness, bewilderment, perplexity, distraction, infatuation, delusion, error, folly. (Atharva Veda).

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Suttas' references
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

SN 1.46
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.46/en/bodhi

&
SN 56.41
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.41/en/bodhi
This sutta shows a meaning of stupefaction that is carried by the Sanskrit √ muh; particularly fro the Ṛg Veda reference.

"Stupefaction towards things" seems to be the meaning of moha.
"Bewilderment, or confusion resulting from the failure to understand", seems to be an adequate (long) definition.

https://justpaste.it/15dxx
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Stephen18
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Re: Ignorance and Delusion -- Sutta?

Post by Stephen18 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:38 pm

In my opinion, ignorance is not understanding, knowing and seeing things in their true nature (as they really are), especially not knowing and seeing suffering, etc., while delusion means seeing things in a perverted, wrong way (the four vipallāsas): seeing the impermanent as permanent, taking what is suffering as happiness, taking what is not-self to be self, and seeing what is ugly to be beautiful.

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