How Many Must One Cut?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Srilankaputra
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How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

From SN1.5
At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devatā recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One:

“How many must one cut, how many abandon,
And how many further must one develop?
When a bhikkhu has surmounted how many ties
Is he called a crosser of the flood?”

The Blessed One:
“One must cut off five, abandon five,
And must develop a further five.
A bhikkhu who has surmounted five ties
Is called a crosser of the flood.”

Any ideas what the Blessed one is referring to in this sutta ?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Srilankaputra
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

In pali:
Sāvatthinidānaṃ. Ekamantaṃ ṭhitā kho sā devatā bhagavato santike imaṃ gāthaṃ abhāsi:

“Kati chinde kati jahe,
kati cuttari bhāvaye;
Kati saṅgātigo bhikkhu,
oghatiṇṇoti vuccatī”ti.

“Pañca chinde pañca jahe,
pañca cuttari bhāvaye;
Pañca saṅgātigo bhikkhu,
oghatiṇṇoti vuccatī”ti.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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retrofuturist
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Srilankaputra wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:52 am Any ideas what the Blessed one is referring to in this sutta ?
Can we guess? :D

Context would suggest to me that it's possibly...

Cut five (lower) fetters, abandon five cords of sense pleasure
Develop five faculties/powers

... but there's so many lists in the suttas, it could well be something else.

Do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the SN? It's probably in the footnotes - alas I don't have it with me at the moment to check...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:56 am Greetings,

... but there's so many lists in the suttas, it could well be something else.
Thanks retro. Is there some place to refer all the lists of the Buddha ?

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:56 am
Do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the SN? It's probably in the footnotes - alas I don't have it with me at the moment to check...
Alas, No. :cry:

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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by paul »

'Cutting five' refers to the five lower fetters, abandoning five, to the higher fetters. I guess the difference between 'cutting' and 'abandoning' refers to the means of escape from the sensuous realm with gross attachment, as contrasted with the brahma realm.
The five to be developed are the spiritual faculties, faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.
Last edited by paul on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

what are the lists of fives given in the suttas ?

Five (lower) fetters
Five (higher) fetters
Five cords of sense pleasure
Five faculties/powers
Five aggregates
Five hindrances

Are there any more ?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Srilankaputra
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

paul wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 am 'Cutting five' refers to the five lower fetters, abandoning five, to the higher fetters. I guess the difference between 'cutting' and 'abandoning' refers to the means of escape from the sensuous realm as contrasted with the brahma realm.
The five to be developed are the spiritual faculties, faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom.
Thanks paul,

But if you look carefully there are four sets of five in the sutta. Cut, abandon, develop and surmount ?

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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Srilankaputra wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:06 am Thanks retro. Is there some place to refer all the lists of the Buddha ?...
Funnily enough, yes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:36 am Funnily enough, yes.
Wonderful. :bow:

https://thedhamma.com/buddhaslists.pdf

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mikenz66
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:56 am Context would suggest to me that it's possibly...

Cut five (lower) fetters, abandon five cords of sense pleasure
Develop five faculties/powers

... but there's so many lists in the suttas, it could well be something else.

Do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the SN? It's probably in the footnotes - alas I don't have it with me at the moment to check...
Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“One must cut off five, abandon five,
And must develop a further five.
A bhikkhu who has surmounted five ties
Is called a crosser of the flood.”
And footnote:
Spk [Commentary]: One must cut off (chinde) the five lower fetters (identity view, doubt, the distorted grasp of rules and vows, sensual desire, ill will). One must abandon (jahe) the five higher fetters (lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance). In order to cut off and abandon these fetters one must develop a further five (pañca cuttari bhāvaye), namely, the five spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom). The five ties (pañcasaṅgā) are: lust, hatred, delusion, conceit, and views. A bhikkhu who has surmounted these five ties is called a crosser of the flood (oghatiṇṇo), that is, a crosser of the fourfold flood (see n. 1).

From Note 1 (to SN 1.1):
The word “flood” (ogha) is used metaphorically, but here with technical overtones, to designate a doctrinal set of four floods (see 45:171 https://suttacentral.net/sn45.171), so called, according to Spk, “because they keep beings submerged within the round of existence and do not allow them to rise up to higher states and to Nibbāna.” The four (with definitions from Spk) are: (i) the flood of sensuality (kāmogha) = desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure (agreeable forms, sounds, etc.—see 45:176 https://suttacentral.net/sn45.176); (ii) the flood of existence (bhavogha) = desire and lust for form-sphere existence and formless-sphere existence and attachment to jhāna; (iii) theflood of views (diṭṭhogha) = the sixty-two views (DN I 12-38 https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi); and (iv) the flood of ignorance (avijjogha) = lack of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths. Flood lack of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths. Flood imagery is also used at vv. 298-300, 511-13, and 848-49.

BB: Strangely, although the verses refer to the five ties as if they are a standard doctrinal set, no pentad of saṅgas can be found as such in the Nikāyas; the five saṅgas are mentioned at Vibh 377,16-18.

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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by DNS »

Srilankaputra wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:47 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:36 am Funnily enough, yes.
Wonderful. :bow:

https://thedhamma.com/buddhaslists.pdf
Thanks. :D

The 5s is one of the biggest categories of lists.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... y#mw-pages
SarathW
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:02 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:56 am Context would suggest to me that it's possibly...

Cut five (lower) fetters, abandon five cords of sense pleasure
Develop five faculties/powers

... but there's so many lists in the suttas, it could well be something else.

Do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the SN? It's probably in the footnotes - alas I don't have it with me at the moment to check...
Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“One must cut off five, abandon five,
And must develop a further five.
A bhikkhu who has surmounted five ties
Is called a crosser of the flood.”
And footnote:
Spk [Commentary]: One must cut off (chinde) the five lower fetters (identity view, doubt, the distorted grasp of rules and vows, sensual desire, ill will). One must abandon (jahe) the five higher fetters (lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance). In order to cut off and abandon these fetters one must develop a further five (pañca cuttari bhāvaye), namely, the five spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom). The five ties (pañcasaṅgā) are: lust, hatred, delusion, conceit, and views. A bhikkhu who has surmounted these five ties is called a crosser of the flood (oghatiṇṇo), that is, a crosser of the fourfold flood (see n. 1).

From Note 1 (to SN 1.1):
The word “flood” (ogha) is used metaphorically, but here with technical overtones, to designate a doctrinal set of four floods (see 45:171 https://suttacentral.net/sn45.171), so called, according to Spk, “because they keep beings submerged within the round of existence and do not allow them to rise up to higher states and to Nibbāna.” The four (with definitions from Spk) are: (i) the flood of sensuality (kāmogha) = desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure (agreeable forms, sounds, etc.—see 45:176 https://suttacentral.net/sn45.176); (ii) the flood of existence (bhavogha) = desire and lust for form-sphere existence and formless-sphere existence and attachment to jhāna; (iii) theflood of views (diṭṭhogha) = the sixty-two views (DN I 12-38 https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi); and (iv) the flood of ignorance (avijjogha) = lack of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths. Flood lack of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths. Flood imagery is also used at vv. 298-300, 511-13, and 848-49.

BB: Strangely, although the verses refer to the five ties as if they are a standard doctrinal set, no pentad of saṅgas can be found as such in the Nikāyas; the five saṅgas are mentioned at Vibh 377,16-18.
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Mike
What is the difference between cut off and abandon in this context?
I generally use "eliminae" for all ten.
Why we can't use one word for all?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:23 pm
“One must cut off five, abandon five,
And must develop a further five.
A bhikkhu who has surmounted five ties
Is called a crosser of the flood.”
What is the difference between cut off and abandon in this context?
I generally use "eliminate" for all ten.
Why we can't use one word for all?
For native English speakers repetition of words is frowned on. It "sounds boring". Variation is possible because English has so many synonyms.

Furthermore, the Pali words are different:
“Five to cut, five to drop,
Pañca chinde pañca jahe,
and five more to develop.
pañca cuttari bhāvaye;
A mendicant must get over five kinds of clinging
Pañca saṅgātigo bhikkhu,
before you call them a flood crosser.”
oghatiṇṇoti vuccatī”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.5/en/sujato#3.1--3.4
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by Srilankaputra »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:02 pm
Here's Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

And footnote:
Spk [Commentary]: One must cut off (chinde) the five lower fetters (identity view, doubt, the distorted grasp of rules and vows, sensual desire, ill will). One must abandon (jahe) the five higher fetters (lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance). In order to cut off and abandon these fetters one must develop a further five (pañca cuttari bhāvaye), namely, the five spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom). The five ties (pañcasaṅgā) are: lust, hatred, delusion, conceit, and views. A bhikkhu who has surmounted these five ties is called a crosser of the flood (oghatiṇṇo), that is, a crosser of the fourfold flood (see n. 1).

BB: Strangely, although the verses refer to the five ties as if they are a standard doctrinal set, no pentad of saṅgas can be found as such in the Nikāyas; the five saṅgas are mentioned at Vibh 377,16-18.
Thank you mike, much appreciate it. :twothumbsup:

It is a bit confusing. I thought getting rid of the ten fetters was job done. :shrug:

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: How Many Must One Cut?

Post by mikenz66 »

Srilankaputra wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:58 am
Thank you mike, much appreciate it. :twothumbsup:

It is a bit confusing. I thought getting rid of the ten fetters was job done. :shrug:
It seems that the texts often give different ways of classifying essentially the same thing. But different classifications are useful for different purposes (e.g. aggregates vs sense bases).

As you say, getting rid of the 10 fetters is a definition of job done.
The five ties seem to be an alternative way of classifying the things one has to get rid of.
And of course the five faculties are required to do the job...

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Mike
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