Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

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whynotme
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Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by whynotme » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 am

Kamacchanda is often translated as sense desires, e.g. desire the pleasure in five senses: something pleasant to view, a nice house, a nice car, a beautiful woman, something pleasant to hear, a good music, some pleasant words, something pleasant to taste, to smell, to touch... Those are five sense desires.

First jhana is defined as the absence of 5 hindrances, one of it is kamacchanda, sense pleasure.

But I think that not only sense desire, but other desire can be a hindrance to a calming mind. Let say someone really want to understand a meaning of a matter, e.g. quantum physics, or a strong desire to train in martial art, or in a sport, or a professions... Those can not be consider sense pleasures.

While those arent sense pleasure, the strong desire will still prevent the mind from calming, isnt it? Desire can be seen as a strong urge to do something.

So the question is that, will the absence of sense desire is enough for the first jhana? What is the classical theravada view on this matter?
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Volo
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by Volo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:22 am

whynotme wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 am
But I think that not only sense desire, but other desire can be a hindrance to a calming mind. Let say someone really want to understand a meaning of a matter, e.g. quantum physics, or a strong desire to train in martial art, or in a sport, or a professions... Those can not be consider sense pleasures.
I think these would come under uddhacca restlessness, agitation.

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budo
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by budo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:28 am

I agree with Volovsky about restlessness, and I would add that people who are chasing these goals and fields, are doing so because they're trying to escape Dukkha, but are doing so ineffectively. Boredom is restlessness which is dukkha.

Basically when you're meditating, if you have the desire for anything other than the object of meditation, and purpose of meditation (like say contemplating 5 aggregates in relation to impermanence), then anything that is outside of that scope is the hindrance of desire, and following that desire will lead to the ending of that meditation sitting/practice.

When you're in first jhana you have absolutely no desire to do anything else, until the 5 factors fade and the hindrances arise again.

SarathW
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:21 pm

First Jhana is considered happiness not of the flesh.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Zom
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:32 pm

So the question is that, will the absence of sense desire is enough for the first jhana?
No, mind must be clean enough to reach this stage and this refers to numerous negative mental factors. For example, as one sutta says, if someone has stinginess, it is impossible for him to reach 1st jhana. There are several such suttas which add more to common list of 5 hindrances. Maybe even they don't mention it all. Apart from the absense of negative factors, positive must be also present. See AN 7.67 for example.

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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:42 pm

all 7 path factors are needed to be developed
Seven Factors of Awakening
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Fac ... _Awakening
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

whynotme
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by whynotme » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:23 pm

OK thank you guys for the explanation

I still have this question regards 5 hindrances.

There is a state like when someone hold on something. I.e. if someone knows first jhana may know this, that for example, when someone want to concentrate on the breath, then he feels pressure, headache... It is the mind that grasp on something tightly and on everyday activity, most people are so familiar with this state that they don't feel it as suffering. Only when someone feels the released state then he knows that the grasp state is suffering.

So, what is this grasp state called in five hindrances? For example, when grasping on the breath wrongly. In the right way the mind must observe the breath, but in the grasp state, the mind wants to control the breath to observe it. It is actually an instinct desire to control the breath that most people can not observe the breath. That why when someone concentrates on something, e.g. waiting, they automatically hold their breath. So there is a fun phrase like, I don't hold my breath for something.. e.g. waiting for a sale. I think this is one of the most basic state that hold people back from the released state.

What is this grasp state is called in 5 hindrances?

Is it kammachanda? It dont fit.
Is it vyāpāda? It dont fit.
Is it thīna-middha? It dont fit.
Is it uddhacca-kukkucca? It don't fit, or it does?
Or it is vicikicchā?
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whynotme
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by whynotme » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:26 pm

budo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:28 am
I agree with Volovsky about restlessness, and I would add that people who are chasing these goals and fields, are doing so because they're trying to escape Dukkha, but are doing so ineffectively. Boredom is restlessness which is dukkha.

Basically when you're meditating, if you have the desire for anything other than the object of meditation, and purpose of meditation (like say contemplating 5 aggregates in relation to impermanence), then anything that is outside of that scope is the hindrance of desire, and following that desire will lead to the ending of that meditation sitting/practice.

When you're in first jhana you have absolutely no desire to do anything else, until the 5 factors fade and the hindrances arise again.
I understand the no desire factor, that why I try to fit other desires into the 5 hindrances.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:33 am

If your mind is enslaved that is a hindrance imo. That is why jhanas are described as an awareness release.

IMO.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Srilankaputra
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:51 am

whynotme wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 am


Let say someone really want to understand a meaning of a matter, e.g. quantum physics, or a strong desire to train in martial art, or in a sport, or a professions...

The above belongs to the sila group. More specifically Samma kammantha.

Mastering nivaranas belong to the samadhi group. More specifically Samma vayama.

IMO.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

paul
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Re: Kamacchanda vs desire in first jhana

Post by paul » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Desire is a necessary motivation for progress in practice, and there are pleasant feelings not of the flesh which have to be aroused by manipulating the breath, indeed these are a necessary alternative to feelings of the flesh. But certainly agitation (uddhacca) is a primary factor in all unwholesome mind states (Buddhist Dictionary).

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