Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

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robertk
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm

Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.

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Keith
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Keith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:21 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
And wrong view is not harmless.
I would rather inflict harm on myself than contribute to the harm of others.

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cappuccino
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Meat has ever been the diet of humanity.

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:47 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

I would still disagree. regular ppl cant live following the vinaya. it maybe "better" to follow it, but u cant call a lay man unskillful for talking to a woman out of earshot of other ppl or growing out there hair longer than 2 finger lengths. Your damaging plants comparison is equally invalid. you would have a point if you exchanged that point for pesticides, but not in damaging plants is to be confessed.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:22 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
And wrong view is not harmless.
Any view which leads to harm is by definition not harmless. In this case it is ( unnecessary ) harm to other living beings. Note that the path factor of Right Intention ( Right Resolve ) includes developing harmlessness.

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. This is one's right view. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness. This is wrong resolve."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... an.html#s1
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:45 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:47 pm
Meat has ever been the diet of humanity.
You could make the same argument about violence, war, slavery, crime etc. It's another :strawman:

These days most of us have a choice about our diet. We don't have to buy meat, we choose to.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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seeker242
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.

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robertk
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.
I would be interested to hear about the suffering of a half kilo of minced beef?

cookiemonster
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:09 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:47 am
cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

I would still disagree. regular ppl cant live following the vinaya. it maybe "better" to follow it, but u cant call a lay man unskillful for talking to a woman out of earshot of other ppl or growing out there hair longer than 2 finger lengths. Your damaging plants comparison is equally invalid. you would have a point if you exchanged that point for pesticides, but not in damaging plants is to be confessed.
IMO: True, Vinaya precepts aren't guidelines for regular people - they are precepts for those intent on nibbana. Those who are content with rebirth into the human realm can do well just with the five precepts. Those who desire more profound attainments must achieve far greater degrees of skillfulness, like not damaging plants. That's what I meant by "it's all relative", considering the continuum of samsara.

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seeker242
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:13 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm


If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.
I would be interested to hear about the suffering of a half kilo of minced beef?
Watch the documentary called earthlings.

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:33 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:09 pm


IMO: True, Vinaya precepts aren't guidelines for regular people - they are precepts for those intent on nibbana. Those who are content with rebirth into the human realm can do well just with the five precepts. Those who desire more profound attainments must achieve far greater degrees of skillfulness, like not damaging plants. That's what I meant by "it's all relative", considering the continuum of samsara.
I still think that's a bit of stretch. but okay, fair point on the relativity.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:49 am

Its not wrong view to be a vegetarian. the idea is that its wrong view to think that eating meat is akusala kamma. It is not. If you oppose meat eating on principle that is perfectly sound and right but that doesnt change how kamma works. I sometimes hear people argue that drinking alcohol is not akusala, because it doenst hurt anyone else and the buddha taught moderation or whatever. it is. It doesnt matter whether or not you think something should be akusala kamma or not. its a matter of what is or isnt. Thinking that something is akusala when it isnt is wrong view and thinking something isn't akusala when it is is also wrong. What you think should be a certain kamma isnt that kamma no matter how strong your argument is. The law of kamma is unchanging (one of the few things that isn't) and simply how things work. Its not necessarily fair in everyone's book.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:53 am

In short. Dont bring in kusala or akusala kamma into the vegetarian debate as it is basically the equivalent of ppl who pretend drinking alcohol moderately or even lightly isnt akusala when it is but make a bunch of non-scriptural argumements as to why it shouldnt be, which changes nothing. if you want to argue for vegetarianism you have more than enuff facts and valid points outside of kamma to make that case.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

Dinsdale
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:31 am

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am
Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.
Exactly so. It is also developing the path factor of Right Intention.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:34 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm
I would be interested to hear about the suffering of a half kilo of minced beef?
If you choose to buy that minced beef then you are expecting somebody else to break the first precept, and do wrong livelihood. That looks like hypocrisy to me, it's rather like getting somebody else to steal stuff on your behalf.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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