the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
cookiemonster
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:56 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:40 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 pm
I thought committing an pacittiya offense is intrinsically akusala.
Knowingly breaking a vinaya rule may be akusala for a monastic, but destroying vegetable life is not akusala in itself as is the intentional killing of living beings.
They're akusala to different degrees ...

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am

OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.

That said the OP asked if it is "Okay" to buy meat as in not any kind of bad kamma that causes peril on your behalf. and I would say the answer is yes. For something that big im pretty sure the Buddha would bother pointing it out explicitly, and various suttas do imply it is "okay", as in the earlier posts. Of course some ppl say just because something is "okay" it isnt right and thats their opinion.

IMO its best not getting too knitpicky about all the details. You cant seperate yourself from harm completely in todays world, from the clothes you wear to the electronics you are using right now somebody was likely abused in the process. Even vegetables cause harm to living beings since most farms use pesticides. Its great if you want to be a vegetarian and save animals but you cant go around blaming ppl for taking a part in kamma that has so many degrees of seperation. If that was the case nobody could buy anything without getting blamed.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Keith
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Keith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am

What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.

cookiemonster
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

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robertk
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm

Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.

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Keith
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Keith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:21 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
And wrong view is not harmless.
I would rather inflict harm on myself than contribute to the harm of others.

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cappuccino
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:47 pm

Meat has ever been the diet of humanity.
“Life is anxiety”

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:47 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

I would still disagree. regular ppl cant live following the vinaya. it maybe "better" to follow it, but u cant call a lay man unskillful for talking to a woman out of earshot of other ppl or growing out there hair longer than 2 finger lengths. Your damaging plants comparison is equally invalid. you would have a point if you exchanged that point for pesticides, but not in damaging plants is to be confessed.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

Dinsdale
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:22 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
And wrong view is not harmless.
Any view which leads to harm is by definition not harmless. In this case it is ( unnecessary ) harm to other living beings. Note that the path factor of Right Intention ( Right Resolve ) includes developing harmlessness.

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. This is one's right view. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness. This is wrong resolve."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... an.html#s1
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:45 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:47 pm
Meat has ever been the diet of humanity.
You could make the same argument about violence, war, slavery, crime etc. It's another :strawman:

These days most of us have a choice about our diet. We don't have to buy meat, we choose to.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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seeker242
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.

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robertk
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm
Keith wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am
What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.
If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.
I would be interested to hear about the suffering of a half kilo of minced beef?

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:09 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:47 am
cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm
TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

I would still disagree. regular ppl cant live following the vinaya. it maybe "better" to follow it, but u cant call a lay man unskillful for talking to a woman out of earshot of other ppl or growing out there hair longer than 2 finger lengths. Your damaging plants comparison is equally invalid. you would have a point if you exchanged that point for pesticides, but not in damaging plants is to be confessed.
IMO: True, Vinaya precepts aren't guidelines for regular people - they are precepts for those intent on nibbana. Those who are content with rebirth into the human realm can do well just with the five precepts. Those who desire more profound attainments must achieve far greater degrees of skillfulness, like not damaging plants. That's what I meant by "it's all relative", considering the continuum of samsara.

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seeker242
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:13 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:45 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:38 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:15 pm


If one thinks that they should be a vegetarian because that is more kusala than eating meat then that is wrong view. And wrong view is not harmless.
People don't become vegetarian over kusala. People become vegetarian over not wanting to cause suffering for others. Not wanting to cause suffering for others is right view.
I would be interested to hear about the suffering of a half kilo of minced beef?
Watch the documentary called earthlings.

TRobinson465
Posts: 520
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Location: United States

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:33 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:09 pm


IMO: True, Vinaya precepts aren't guidelines for regular people - they are precepts for those intent on nibbana. Those who are content with rebirth into the human realm can do well just with the five precepts. Those who desire more profound attainments must achieve far greater degrees of skillfulness, like not damaging plants. That's what I meant by "it's all relative", considering the continuum of samsara.
I still think that's a bit of stretch. but okay, fair point on the relativity.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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