How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

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salayatananirodha
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How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:35 am

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

("Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'")
- Chiggala sutta

In review of the repetition of the terminology rendered "sheer coincidence", do you believe there is any causality for the arising of the perfect (non-pacceka) buddha? We know that following the Dhamma, the path of the ancient ones, leads to the total extinction of craving and clinging, the unshakable deliverance of mind, but is there anything in sutta or commentary to suggest this occurs as anything more than a falling into place of things, happenstance?
I think if we came to an agreement on this issue it might address the arising of the bodhisattva-vow, the ill-founded view that buddhahood is the goal rather than arahantship.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Sam Vara
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:59 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:35 am
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

("Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'")
- Chiggala sutta

In review of the repetition of the terminology rendered "sheer coincidence", do you believe there is any causality for the arising of the perfect (non-pacceka) buddha? We know that following the Dhamma, the path of the ancient ones, leads to the total extinction of craving and clinging, the unshakable deliverance of mind, but is there anything in sutta or commentary to suggest this occurs as anything more than a falling into place of things, happenstance?
I think if we came to an agreement on this issue it might address the arising of the bodhisattva-vow, the ill-founded view that buddhahood is the goal rather than arahantship.
The "sheer coincidence" angle has been discussed recently - it might be worth having a look...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31423&hilit=sheer+ ... e#p463044

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salayatananirodha
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:10 am

Yes, it seems that the prevailing popular opinion is that it is a translation error. But I'm not convinced.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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dylanj
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:20 am

Well, it says it is sheer coincidence one is born a human, but we know that among the Buddha's 3 knowledges are the "death & rebirth of beings according to their actions". Rebirth is caused & accords to one's kamma. So I think "sheer coincidence" is not pointing at a lack of causality but at the rare, non-determined, & in fact the conditional & thus causal nature of the arising of a Buddha.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:24 am

& I don't think it's a translation error. It is a coincidence. It is the sheer co-inciding of very particular & specific conditions that causes a Buddha to arise. It is not predestined nor spontaneously occurring. It is the result of the proper conditions happening to come together at the proper place & time.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

TRobinson465
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:13 am

It could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha arises, but its certainly through the beings past actions that he became a Buddha. I don't think its a coincidence to be born human. I would say the proper translation is more "incredibly unlikely" than "sheer coincidence"
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

justindesilva
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:54 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:13 am
It could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha arises, but its certainly through the beings past actions that he became a Buddha. I don't think its a coincidence to be born human. I would say the proper translation is more "incredibly unlikely" than "sheer coincidence"
Becoming a budda is not coincidence. Attaining buddahood is a result is avdetermination of a lay person over ( samsara) through many millions of years. Such a person has to go throug permissions or blessings called
' vivarana' from so many ; eg: the mother, a former budda etc. and develop dana , sila. The jataka story of Vessantara explain , how Vessantara gave his son and daughter , in anticipation of future buddahood. Another Jataka story explain how he swam with his mother to be saved from drowning. All jataka stories (550 numbers) are written explaining of various former births of lord budda explaining his deeds over the long journey in samsara by , siddartha to have attained buddahood as Gautama.
I believe that this will explain that attaining buddahood is not mere coincidence, but a story of perseverence and determination with giving up of so much in life existence.

TRobinson465
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:01 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:54 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:13 am
It could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha arises, but its certainly through the beings past actions that he became a Buddha. I don't think its a coincidence to be born human. I would say the proper translation is more "incredibly unlikely" than "sheer coincidence"
Becoming a budda is not coincidence. Attaining buddahood is a result is avdetermination of a lay person over ( samsara) through many millions of years. Such a person has to go throug permissions or blessings called
' vivarana' from so many ; eg: the mother, a former budda etc. and develop dana , sila. The jataka story of Vessantara explain , how Vessantara gave his son and daughter , in anticipation of future buddahood. Another Jataka story explain how he swam with his mother to be saved from drowning. All jataka stories (550 numbers) are written explaining of various former births of lord budda explaining his deeds over the long journey in samsara by , siddartha to have attained buddahood as Gautama.
I believe that this will explain that attaining buddahood is not mere coincidence, but a story of perseverence and determination with giving up of so much in life existence.
I am aware that a Buddha attains Buddhahood through aeons of self development and perfection. I meant to say that it could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha emerges in a world. Apologies if I wasn't clear in my last post.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

justindesilva
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:26 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:01 am
It could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha arises,
...
I am aware that a Buddha attains Buddhahood through aeons of self development and perfection. I meant to say that it could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha emerges in a world. Apologies if I wasn't clear in my last post.
May be I misinderstood yr. message. However the coming of buddas are not coincidences. The appearance of Metteya budda is predicted in a period called dark period , when darma has disappeared on the earth and the morals are in turmoil. At that time the average age of human beings are said to be approx. 84000 years. If necesssry the context of sutta can be found. ( may be AN 7.62)

TRobinson465
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:17 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:26 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:01 am
It could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha arises,
...
I am aware that a Buddha attains Buddhahood through aeons of self development and perfection. I meant to say that it could be a coincidence as to "when" a Buddha emerges in a world. Apologies if I wasn't clear in my last post.
May be I misinderstood yr. message. However the coming of buddas are not coincidences. The appearance of Metteya budda is predicted in a period called dark period , when darma has disappeared on the earth and the morals are in turmoil. At that time the average age of human beings are said to be approx. 84000 years. If necesssry the context of sutta can be found. ( may be AN 7.62)
Yeah i'm aware of the prediction. what im saying is its possible that when Buddhas emerge is coincidence. as most of existence has no Dhamma, so perhaps when Buddhas appear are just coincidence other than that they appear when the Dhamma is gone. And just to be clear, i don't even think its a coincidence, bodhisattas reside in Tusita before thier final rebirth, so i think they await a particular time to come down. What im saying is the only thing in that verse translation that "could" be a coincidence is when Buddhas appear. As it is certainly not a coincidence to be born a human or as a Buddha, as these are by the intentional actions of the beings. I think the whole verse is likely not translated correctly.

In fact, looking at my prior post i know now I wasnt being clear lol. so here is the rest of it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

santa100
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by santa100 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 pm

salayatananirodha wrote:In review of the repetition of the terminology rendered "sheer coincidence", do you believe there is any causality for the arising of the perfect (non-pacceka) buddha?
Ven. Bodhi's translation version:
SN 56.48 wrote:So too, bhikkhus, it is by chance that one obtains the human state; by chance that a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Perfectly Enlightened One arises in the world; by chance that the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata shines in the world.
And his note:
The statement has to be taken as rhetorical rather than philosophical in intent. At the doctrinal level, all three occurrences mentioned here come about through precise causes and conditions, not by chance.

TRobinson465
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Re: How does a perfectly awakened Buddha arise?

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 am

santa100 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:57 pm
salayatananirodha wrote:In review of the repetition of the terminology rendered "sheer coincidence", do you believe there is any causality for the arising of the perfect (non-pacceka) buddha?
Ven. Bodhi's translation version:
SN 56.48 wrote:So too, bhikkhus, it is by chance that one obtains the human state; by chance that a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Perfectly Enlightened One arises in the world; by chance that the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata shines in the world.
And his note:
The statement has to be taken as rhetorical rather than philosophical in intent. At the doctrinal level, all three occurrences mentioned here come about through precise causes and conditions, not by chance.
Thats true, I suppose its more the message that these cases and opportunities are so incredibly rare and precious rather than a literal use of the word coincidence, of which they are not.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism"

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