Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2507
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:29 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am
“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
Is it merely a coincidence (unrelated chance) that there is a maximum of seven more "wanderings" and seven more fetters the stream-enterer cuts to arahantship? :shrug:

Also, what is your view about the "wanderings" described in SN 22.99? :shrug:
"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:23 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:20 am
to me it is clear that you lied and now trying to conceal it.
I won't quote Sutta references about people who do such things for it would be against ToS.
In MN 61 it is said a deliberate liar is the most evil person. To accuse a Buddhist a liar is a grave charge. As a monk, very serious.

:focus: Please substantiate the claims made about the seven births.
what claims dude,
9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2507
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 31, 2018 11:32 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am
what claims dude,
9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
This was discussed before and was unconclusive.

Regardless, when a stream-enterer is "born" again, does the stream enterer believe they are a "self"? :shrug:

:strawman: :jedi:

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:32 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am
what claims dude,
9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
This was discussed before and was unconclusive.

Regardless, when a stream-enterer is "born" again, does the stream enterer believe they are a "self"? :shrug:

:strawman: :jedi:
i recommend you making a new thread, perhaps someone will explain it to you

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16417
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:34 am

Came across this from
Questions & Answers On Dhamma
Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
2010-01-06
Dear Bhante Ñāṇananda,

Is there any difference between Sotāpattiphala Samāpatti
and Arahattaphala Samāpatti?

Dear Āyasmā Yogānanda,

Granted that all the four Supramundane Paths and Fruits
imply a vision of Nibbāna and an insight into the law of
Dependent Arising, one might wonder why there is a gradation in
the experiences of the Fruit attributed to the 4 Noble Persons. If
the ‘taste’ of the Four Fruits in the Supramundane – ‘Bunch’ is
the same, why all this discrimination?

According to the Buddha, it is a question of fetters (to
existence) and influxes (āsavā). It is true that even the
Streamwinner gets the conviction that there is no fear of death
where there is no craving and that existence is dependent on
grasping
. But he has not fully realized the stilling of all
preparations
(sabbasankhārasamatha) and the complete
destruction of craving
because of the tenacity of remaining
fetters. To that extent his experience of Nibbāna is not on par
with that of an Arahant who has destroyed the fetters and
influxes. Even at the risk of possible misconstruing this gradation
could be compared to that of a comma, a semicolon, a colon and
a Full Stop!

1234
, ; : .
:heart:
Mike

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by pitakele » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
There have been several posts with suttas referencing penetration of the 4NT at each path. I am not sure why anyone would doubt this. These are obviously incredibly powerful experiences which change beings' destinies 'forever'.

According to my understanding, nirodha (3rd NT) is essential for the radical transformation of the mind which occurs at each stage. An analogy: a major upgrade on a computer cannot be made while the system is operating - a reboot is required. Similarly, a major upgrade of the mind, the removal or attenuation* of fetters, cannot occur inside the conditioned. A reboot is required - conditioned to unconditioned to conditioned. Afterwards, the knowledge of the fetters removed or attenuated manifests in various ways according to individuals' modes of practice. The 'duration' of this spontaneously occurring nirodha will depend on the strength of the individual's ñāna and posture & activity at the time.

* second stage only
now here = nowhere

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:51 am

pitakele wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am
I am not sure why anyone would doubt this.
Some doubt because thinking that they are a Sotapanna without having the meditative attainment or following a teacher who thinks that.

8FNP leads to the Deathless, to the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception, the realization of Noble Truths, to direct knowledge, The Unconditioned, the Unbinding, producing vision and knowledge. All this is explicitly stated in the Sutta Pitaka.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:08 am

Reference to attainment of path-fruition sotapattiphalasamapatti is in the Patisambhidamagga

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2507
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:56 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:51 am
8FNP leads to... the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception... All this is explicitly stated in the Sutta Pitaka.
Obviously not. If the path leads to the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception why are you wasting your time posting on this forum engaged in sense contact? Do you delight in the hell of dukkha? :roll:
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

Iti 44
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:51 am
pitakele wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:10 am
I am not sure why anyone would doubt this.
Some doubt because thinking that they are a Sotapanna without having the meditative attainment or following a teacher who thinks that.
The 3rd Noble Truth is described as the ending of craving. To think the goal is the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception is to doubt the 3rd Noble Truth. :|
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release & letting go of that very craving.

SN 56.11

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16417
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:30 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:56 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:51 am
8FNP leads to... the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception... All this is explicitly stated in the Sutta Pitaka.
Obviously not.
I believe you are talking at cross purposes. Nibbana involves the cessation of contact, etc, but after the nibbana-with-residue the Arahant does, of course, experience feeling, as pointed out by DooDoot.

That sutta, and it's implications, is discussed in detail by Ven Nananada in Nibbana Sermon 18:
Nibbana - The Mind Stilled: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:56 am
If the path leads to the cessation of contact and thus the cessation of feeling and perception why are you wasting your time posting on this forum engaged in sense contact? Do you delight in the hell of dukkha? :roll:
This is off topic and dismissive. Please stick to the topic, and refrain from speculation about other members.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by pitakele » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:46 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:30 am
..... but after the nibbana-with-residue the Arahant does, of course, experience feeling....That sutta, and it's implications, is discussed in detail by Ven Nananada in Nibbana Sermon 18: Nibbana - The Mind Stilled: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
Thank you for the above link👌 I hadn't visited the site for a while and saw many interesting publications by Bhante Ñānānanda available for free download.

I was surprised by your statement 'after the nibbana-with-residue the Arahant does, of course, experience feeling'. This is because the traditional understanding is that after 'nibbāna with residue' (saupādisesānibbāna), comes 'nibbāna without residue', (anupādisesānibbāna). The two Nibbāna elements:

"One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease."
https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland

I read Nibbāna Sermon 18, and found a couple of Bhante's translations of important terms in the Nibbānadhātu Sutta are misleading. He has departed from the usual translation of saupādisesā, 'with residue left', and instead uses 'residue with clinging'. To my understanding, it is illogical (almost like an oxymoron) to use 'residue of clinging' in the context of an Arahat, 'one whose taints are destroyed etc.'' Also, I think Bhante's translation of manāpāmanāpaṃ paccanubhoti as 'experiencing likes and dislikes' is incorrect as this contradicts a defining characteristic of an Arahat as being free from attachment and aversion. A usual translation of this term is 'experiencing the pleasant and upleasant'.
now here = nowhere

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16417
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm

pitakele wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:46 pm
I read Nibbāna Sermon 18, and found a couple of Bhante's translations of important terms in the Nibbānadhātu Sutta are misleading. He has departed from the usual translation of saupādisesā, 'with residue left', and instead uses 'residue with clinging'. ...
Ven KN often seems to quote old PTS translations. If you register for Ven Anlayo's course:
https://analayo2018.buddhistinquiry.org you'll find his modified PDFs that add other translations and parallels.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:04 pm

Here are relative excerpts from Mahasi Sayadaw's Manual of Insight;
Vision of the Dhamma;

Many discourses describe the arising of path knowledge in this way;
... the spotless immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose: "All that is subject to arising is subject t cessation."

But this contemplation is not occurring at the moment of path. At that moment, one only experiences nibbana in the form of the cessation of all conditioned phenomena
However, one is able to understand that one has entered the cessation of all conditioned phenomena, which is the cessation of objects and the mind that notes them, at the moment of reviewing knowledge, which reviews the path, the fruit, and nibbana. One can also understand that with the attainment of "the element of nibbana without the residue remaining" (anupadisesanibbanadhatu), all conditioned phenomena cease [to arise].
Moreover, one is able to understand that any phenomena that come into existence are bound to vanish. This is why, if one continues practicing after path and fruition and reviewing knowledge, one's insight resumes at the stage of seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena. The commentary to the Ambattha Sutta of the Digha Nikaya explains the vision of the Dhamma as follows:
"The vision of the Dhamma" refers to path knowledge of stream entry. In order to demonstrate what the path involves, it is said [that one realizes]: "All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation." This is because path consciousnesness, when taking the cessation of all conditioned phenomena, nibbana, as its object, accomplishes the function of giving rise to this clear and penetrating understanding regarding all conditioned phenomena."
This commentary addresses the question of why path consciousness is said to realize "All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation," even though it only takes unconditioned phenomena (asankhata) as its object and not conditioned phenomena (sankhata). It is interesting to note that the expression "the vision of the Dhamma" is also used to refer to the first three path knowledges in the Brahmayu Sytta, and to all four path knowledges in the Cularahulovada Sutta.


Two types of nibbana

There is only one kind of nibbana in terms of being the cessation of all mental and physical suffering that has the characteristic of peacefulness. However, in another sense, nibbana may be further divided into two types as follows: with residue remaining (sa-upadisesa) - this is the nibbana of an arahant, one who has completely extinguished all mental defilements but still experiences the "residue" of the aggregates as a result of past craving, clinging and volitional actions; and without residue remaining (anupadisesa) - this is the nibbana of an arahant who has passed away, that is, after entering parinibbana, and refers to the complete cessation of all conditioned phenomena.
The Buddha explained these two types of nibbana as follows:
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released though final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left. "

Note that in the first section of this passage that describes nibbana with residue left, a living arahant is said to have "laid down the burden" of the five aggregates, even though one still possesses a mind and body. This is because they are one's last aggregates, and no more will arise, so we can say that they have effectively set down the burden of the five aggregates.
Note that in the second section of this passage that describes nibbana with no residue left, the feeling that is mentioned refers to the particular type of feeling that is mentioned refers to the particular type of feeling that is experienced only arahants. This is kammically indeterminate (abyakata) feeling, tht cannot be said to be wholesome or unwholesome and produces no kammic results. Also, although only feeling is mentioned explicitly, it should be taken to include all five aggregates. The arahant has no involvement with any of the aggregates that might lead to rebirth. None of the phenomena that one experiences while still alive are associated with desire, pride, or wrong view. Thus they all arise and pass away completely, without leaving any kammic residue that might create the potential for another life.
A fire that does not get any more fuel cannot continue to burn but simply dies down and becomes extinguished. Likewise, an arahant's aggregates that have been caused though previous kamma do not arise as a new life or new aggregates but, after having arisen, simply cease and become extinguished. After the cessation of the aggregates the aggregates no longer arise. As a result, the aggregates that constantly arise in an arahant due to the momentum of previous kamma do not continue to arise in a new life but are extinguished in this very life.
Nibbana without residue remaining is synonymous with the cessation of the aggregates (khandaparinibbana).
...
"These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable, and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being."
In these verses, the cessation of the defilements or the aggregates, that is nibbana either with or without residue remaining, is called the unconditioned. Nibbana is also called a "state" (pada) because it can be attained and experienced though the path knowledge and fruition knowledge. Based on this, it can be concluded that the nibbana that is experienced though path and fruition is the same as the two types of nibbana with and without residue remaining. If this were not the case, then the Abhidhamma would be incorrect in saying:
"Though nibbana is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, by reference to a basis (for distinction), it is twofold, namely, the element of nibbana with the residue remaining, and the element of nibbana without residue remaining."
The unique characteristic of nibbana is the peacefulness associated with the cessation [of conditioned phenomena]. Or, in other words, this unique characteristic must necessarily belong to any type of nibbana. In this sense there is only one type of nibbana, even though it may be divided into two types, one with and one without residue remaining.
Even though it is clearly stated that nibbana is twofold, if nibbana either with or without residue remaining and nibbana that is experienced though path and fruition were divided, it would also contradict the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. If nibbana that is experienced though path and fruition us reakm being an ultimate reality, while the nibbana that is with or without residue remaining is imaginary, being simply a concept. But if this were the case, the nibbana would to be classified into three types, rather than two: one real nibbana, having its unique characteristic of peace, and two [other conceptual types], one with and one without residue remaining.
...
Therefore we must conclude that the nibbana that is experienced by means of path and fruition is general nibbana (samannanibbana). The two types of nibbana-with and without residue remaining - that are specific nibbana (visesanibbana) are included within general nibbana. This is why the nibbana that is experienced by means of path and fruition is not identified as being with or without residue remaining, or as the cessation of desire, aversion, delusion, material phenomena, or feeling, or as present, past, or future, or as the cessation of defilements or phenomena. In reality nibbana is simply experienced and known as the cessation of conditioned phenomena that perceive or are perceived, Because all mental and physical phenomena are extinguished in nibbana, it also includes nibbana with residue remaining and nibbana without residue remaining.


Experiencing Nibbana
...
Taken as a whole, nibbana is the cessation of all twelve of these sense bases. Venerable Ananda once explained this, saying:
"This was stated by the Blessed One, friends, with reference to the cessation of the six [internal and external] sense bases."

The commentary to the Udana of the Khuddaka Nikaya also describes nibbana as the cessation of all twelve sense bases and refers to an explaination that the Buddha gave to Bahiyam which other scholars cite.

According to those scholars, the passage "Then, Bahiya, you will neither be here nor beyond nor in between the two" can be explained as follows:
[If one is no longer involved with defilements in what is seen, heard, experienced, or perceived, then, Bahiya,] one will no longer exist here in the internal [sense bases of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind], nor there in the external [sense bases of visible form, sound, odor, flavor, touch and mental objects], nor anywhere else in the sense consciousnesses [of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and perceiving. This is the end of suffering].

A meditator proceeds by observing the most obvious object from among these twelve sense bases, consciousnesses, and mental factors, But at the moment of path and fruition, the meditator stops perceiving the object and instead experiences the total cessation of all of these objects. This experience of cessation is nibbana. It is very important to undertand this.
The sense bases actually represent all conditioned phenomena. So the cessation of the sense bases refers to the cessation of all conditioned phenomena. In the following discourse, nibbana is said to be that state that is the opposite of conditioned phenomena. According to the texts:
"Where water, earth, fire and air do not gain a footing:
It is from there, that the streams [of phenomena] turn back,
Here that the round [ of the defilements, kamma, and its result] no
longer revolves.
There, name-and-form ceases.
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous,
That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
There "name-and-form" [mental and physical phenomena] are wholly
destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed."
The statement that nibbana is "all-luminous" in this passage means that it is completely cleansed of all defilements. Similar metaphors are used in such expressions as "the light of wisdom" (panna-aloka), "the luster of wisdom" (panna-obhasa), and "the torch of wisdom" (pannapajjota). It is in this same sense that the Buddha said, "Bhikkhus, the mind is luminous." The sense here is that nibbana is always luminous. The mind and wisdom, which possess an innate luminosity, can be soiled by defiling phenomena. Nibbana, however, which is the cessation of defilements or conditioned phenomena, can never be connected with defiling phenomena. Therefore there is no way that any of these phenomena can soil or defile nibbana, just as the sky can never be painted. As a result it is said that "nibbana is all-luminous." The be straightforward, the meaning of the commentary and subcommentary is only that nibbana is absolutely not connected to the defilements, or is completely cleansed of them.
So one should not misinterpret this statement to mean that nibbana is literally shining like the sun, moon, or stars, and that one sees this luminosity by means of path knowledge and fruition knowledge. This kind of interpretation would negate previous statement that nibbana is signless, would be inconsistent with its unique "signless" manifestation (animittapaccupatthana), and would contradict Venerable Nagasena's answer to King Milinda's question about the nature of nibbana. In fact this kind of literal interpreation would be in opposition to all the Pali texts and commentaries that say that there is no materiality in nibbana. In any event the cessation of potential defilements and aggregates is not something that is luminous and bright. If it were, the Pali texts and commentaries could easily have said that "nibbana is luminous and briht". Otherwis they would not explain it with difficult names such as "destruction of lust" (ragakkhayo), "the peaceful ending of all conditioned phenomena" (sabbasakharasamatho), "nonarising" (anuppado), and so on, which are taken to be opposites of conditioned phenomena. On should reflect deeply about this!
"That's where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul-
There "name-and-form" [mental and physical phenomena] are wholly
destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed."

These lines point out nibbana, or cessation. The last line points out the cause of this cessation. "Consciousness" here refers to both the death consciousness (cuticitta) and the volitional mind (abhisankharavinnana) at the time of parinibbana. All presently existing conditioned phenomena come to an end due to the destruction of death consciousness at the time of parinibbana, and because there is no volitional mind that can produce results, new phenomena do not arise but cease to exist. Thus with the cessation of these two kinds of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena cease. This is like the cessation of the emission from light from an oil lamp whose oil and wich have been completely consumed.

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by pitakele » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:07 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm
Ven KN often seems to quote old PTS translations. If you register for Ven Anlayo's course:
https://analayo2018.buddhistinquiry.org you'll find his modified PDFs that add other translations and parallels.
Thank you for your reply. Registration for the 2018 course closed on 30 April. If you have a modified copy of Sermon 18, are you able to share it?
now here = nowhere

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16417
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:03 am

pitakele wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:07 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm
Ven KN often seems to quote old PTS translations. If you register for Ven Anlayo's course:
https://analayo2018.buddhistinquiry.org you'll find his modified PDFs that add other translations and parallels.
Thank you for your reply. Registration for the 2018 course closed on 30 April. If you have a modified copy of Sermon 18, are you able to share it?
Hmm, that's a pity. They'll make them available a few months after the end of the course, which is in a couple of weeks.

All that it has are additions such as Ireland's translation:
https://suttacentral.net/en/iti44

Inserted in relevant places. Here are some of the others:

------------------------------
"Like a drop of water on a lotus leaf,
Or water that taints not the lotus petal,
So the sage unattached remains,In regard to what is seen, heard and sensed."
-------------------------------
Translation Bodhi (2017: 297):
“Just as a water drop does not stick to a lotus leaf,
Or water to the lotus flower,
So the muni does not cling to anything
Among the seen, heard, or sensed.”
-------------------------------
-------------------------------
"As a huge blazing fire, with no more firewood added,
Goes down to reach a state of calm,
Embers smouldering, as they are, could be reckoned,
So long as they last, as almost 'extinguished'."
-------------------------------
Translation Bodhi (2012: 910):
“A great fire all ablaze
Settles down when deprived of fuel,
And when all the coals have gone out,
It is said to be extinguished.”

MĀ 118
“It is just as a blazing fire
Will cease burning if not supplied with fuel.
Without fuel a fire will not continue;
Such a fire is said to have ceased.”
------------------------
You can see last year's PDF's here (Sermons 1-11)
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... -lectures/

:heart:
Mike

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests