Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta.
SN 13.1
In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater.

SN 13.1

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:19 pm

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these three properties. Which three? The property of form, the property of formlessness, & the property of cessation. These are the three properties."

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:43 am

hey, i was very recently reading something like that, and i was reading as you know sutta nipāta
dont remember where or if it was in one of the commentaries
however the term seeing the deathless, and also touching the deathless, by a jhana monk, come to mind. ven vimalaramsi said something about mundane nibbana once
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:30 am

Self-identification is a synonym for dukkha. Stream-enterer has cut self-identification view therefore cut lots of dukkha.
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

MN 44

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Hello:

Maybe this is enough, from the Mahavagga — Mv I.23.5:
[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have...
"
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.

Regards.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:55 pm

2600htz wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 pm
Hello:

Maybe this is enough, from the Mahavagga — Mv I.23.5:
[Immediately after attaining the stream] Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Your faculties are bright, my friend; your complexion pure & clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have...
"
Trivia: Having bright faculties, and pure & clear complexion are the typical formula of the canon when talking about a person who just emerged from the cessation of feeling & perception (mn-43), so maybe thats another important fact that supports the idea of nibbana experienced in the first stages of awakening.

Regards.
A very important text, showing that the Arising of the Dhamma-Eye is the Attainment of the Deathless.
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
The suttas suggest a stream enterer has only an intellectual understanding of nibbana and not a direct experience of it. That would also be technically impossible, since a stream enterer can not even experience jhana let alone such a state as nibbana. There is even a sutta where a stream enterer is asked about this and here is what he answered:
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose effluents are ended."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Stream enterer is one that only has knowledge that "there is water" - he only knows what exactly this nibbana is and how to attain it. But he can not taste it. Not to mention that since he can not even dwell in a state that still has defilements such as jhana, how could he possibly be capable of experiencing a state of no defilement whatsoever, much higher than any of the jhanas ? How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by robertk » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:22 pm

How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
Small.?
He has already directly known Nama- rupaparichedda nana, something that is due to extraordinary level of understanding. And then a further 15 stages of insight.

None of this is related to skill in jhana.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Polar Bear » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 7:51 pm
I have always read that the fruit of each stage occurs when the mind experiences Nibbāna...I have never read this in any actual sutta. Is it canonical? If so, is it just in the Abhidhamma or elsewhere?
It’s straightforwardly inferable from the Suttas. Were it the case that the sotāpanna had not seen Nibbāna, then it couldn’t be said of him that he had seen the third noble truth. The Suttas, however, say that he has seen all four of the noble truths:

“But when one sees with correct wisdom
The truths of the noble ones—
Suffering and its origin,
The overcoming of suffering,
And the Noble Eightfold Path
That leads to suffering’s appeasement—
Then that person, having wandered on
For seven more times at most,
Makes an end to suffering
By destroying all the fetters.”
(SN. ii. 185-6)
Hello Bhante,

I think we’re still left with the question of what it means to see the third noble truth. A minimalist interpretation would suggest simply that they’ve experienced a moment completely without craving and noticed they weren’t suffering at that moment. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they’ve experienced an unconditioned reality upon coming to which, fetters were destroyed.
“Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it. - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:49 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:22 pm
How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
Small.?
He has already directly known Nama- rupaparichedda nana, something that is due to extraordinary level of understanding. And then a further 15 stages of insight.

None of this is related to skill in jhana.
15 stages of insight ? I've never heard of this concept. It was not taught by the historical Buddha. It is not part of his dhamma.

Indeed the level of development is not small in general, but it is small in terms of experience of wholesome states that are not tainted by craving. How could one experience the supreme state, unbinding, that comes after the 8th step of the noble 8thfold path, when one has not even started developing the 8th step of the 8thfold path ?

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:23 pm
Not to mention that since he can not even dwell in a state that still has defilements such as jhana, how could he possibly be capable of experiencing a state of no defilement whatsoever, much higher than any of the jhanas ? How could he technically taste such a state giving his small level of development ?
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
The sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Check out what those pleasant mental abidings he is speaking about are. He isn't speaking about jhana but about the confidence that the stream enterer has in the buddha, the dhamma, the shanga + the virtue that he has.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:58 am

Circle5 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:06 pm
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
The sutta is here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Check out what those pleasant mental abidings he is speaking about are. He isn't speaking about jhana but about the confidence that the stream enterer has in the buddha, the dhamma, the shanga + the virtue that he has.
Yes you are right about this, shouldve checked it better.

However both Sariputta, Mogalanna as well as the 5 ascetics had attained Jhanas before attainment of Stream-Entry?
How do you interperet the Viññana Sutta: Consciousness and what constitutes the 8 Noble Individuals?
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:30 pm

We see in the suttas hundreds of cases of people attaining stream entry. Those that were ascetics prior to hearing the dhamma discovered by the Buddha (and they might also have attained jhana) become non-returners or arahants on the spot. Those that were lay followers normally become stream enterers. As as matter of fact, I don't think there is a single case of a random lay person attaining anything higher than stream entry after hearing the dhamma. Which is something normal.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:56 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:30 pm
no comment on the Sutta and the Eight individual types?
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Well, the 8 individuals means the 4 that have achieved that milestone and the 4 that are striving towards it. And the faith-follower and dhamma-follower are the ones striving to become a stream enterer. All that is left to do for them is to really understand how things work. We see in the suttas that such people have gone home after having a discussion with the Buddha, then have contemplated and contemplated for some time the different conditionalities that exist between the 5 aggregates and at one point they have really understood them in detail.

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:04 am

What do you mean by milestone?
So you think that attaining the deathless and arising of the dhamma eye refers to intellectual understanding? Why would they use such words to talk about intellectual understanding? Do you reject the Abhidhamma explaination of path and fruit as well?
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"It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."
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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 am

atttaining the deathless = arahantship

arising of the dhamma eye = stream entry - something that usually took a couple of days to do for people in the suttas. Though we even have a serial killer that attained it after just a couple of hours of listening to the Buddha explaining the higher dhamma to him

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Re: Is the idea that Nibbāna is seen at each of 4 stages of awakening canonical?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:22 am

overnight success isn't what it seems

time of preparing is unseen

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