One "citta" at a time

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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retrofuturist
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bubba & Virgo,

Out of interest, are your comments directed towards any one individual or to questioners in general?

Whilst "how exactly does it work?" type questions probably warrant some personal investigation, definitional issues relating to as "what is a citta and how are its boundaries defined?" should be answerable, and in fact are a sensible prelude to the "how exactly does it work?" variety of question.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Anicca
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Anicca »

i think i get singled out...

anyone looking for the ADL will find the link at the Abhidhamma Resources is broke. Is there a better link than this one?

Sincere thanks to both Kevin & John!
pt1
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by pt1 »

Anicca wrote: anyone looking for the ADL will find the link at the Abhidhamma Resources is broke. Is there a better link than this one?
Afaik, this is the latest version:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23527103/Abhi ... ed-1-12-09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes
Freawaru
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Freawaru »

Hi acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:Hi Freawaru,

I don't go in for assumptions. Before any serious discussion can take place we all need a common base. Therefore a clear definition from the Abhidhamma is essential. I would be glad if somebody who's familiar with Abhidhamma could clarify this.

best wishes, acinteyyo
I doubt you will get it. I asked similar questions on dhammastudygroup and even Nina couldn't answer them. Citta is "that what experiences" is as closest to the answer one seems to be able to get - meaning you need to define "experience", too. Abhidhamma doesn't seem to be a very exact theory. And as you already stated it does seem to disagree regarding definitions with the suttas. In the suttas nama-rupa is only one link in patticasamupada but in Abhidhamma everything is classified as either nama or rupa including all the other links of DO such as sankhara and vinnana and so on.

I wish you luck in your search. Please share any logical and self-consistent answers you may find with me because I am still interested in the topic.
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cooran
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by cooran »

Hello Freawaru,
I asked similar questions on dhammastudygroup and even Nina couldn't answer them.
Please give a link to where this occurred.

with metta
Chris
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Freawaru »

cooran wrote:Hello Freawaru,
I asked similar questions on dhammastudygroup and even Nina couldn't answer them.
Please give a link to where this occurred.

with metta
Chris
I am sorry, Chris, but I will not spend this morning on going through all my discussions on dhammastudygroup. But I can quote "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" http://www.scribd.com/doc/23527103/Abhi ... ed-1-12-09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; page 7
"Even when we are sound asleep and not dreaming citta experiences an object. There is no citta without an object". And "As regards citta, citta knows or experiences an object" (page 7).

So "citta" is "that what experiences an object" and also "that what knows an object". Not a clear definition without defining "experience" and "knowing". Also, every object can be experienced (in the sense used by those who meditate) and when one experiences it one knows that the object experiences itself and the world (guess that is where that Brahma idea stems from). The separation into nama and rupa as to "nama experiences something; rupa does not experience anything" (page 5) does not work, either, for there would be no rupa. There are no "physical phenomena" in the sense of rupa - whatever we are aware of we can absorb into and realise that it experiences. If there is something that does not experience we cannot be aware of it and thus we cannot discern and classify it. My first absorption was into sound and it does experience. I know this is not the meditation forum but those definitions I got so far disagree with logic and insight and thus I think that there must be something wrong with the interpretation of Abhidhamma scripture... until I am proved wrong of course. :shrug:
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Virgo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Virgo »

Freawaru wrote:whatever we are aware of we can absorb into and realise that it experiences. If there is something that does not experience we cannot be aware of it and thus we cannot discern and classify it. My first absorption was into sound and it does experience.
You think that sound experiences things?


kevinu
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acinteyyo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by acinteyyo »

Hi all,

a little bit funny that there is so much talking but only few answers. My initial question is still not clearly answered.
acinteyyo wrote:What is the meaningn of "citta" according to Abhidhamma?
Ben posted a very good transcription. Because of the transcription I said:
acinteyyo wrote:It seems to me that citta according to Abhidhamma and commentarial literature is equal to what is conventionally meant by "consciousness" (in contrast to viññāna), but also includes viññāna.
Is this right?
If nobody really knows how to answer my question, maybe there's sombody who's familiar enough with Abhidhamma to give me some advice where I could probably find passages to read it myself.
Freawaru wrote:Hi acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:Hi Freawaru,
I don't go in for assumptions. Before any serious discussion can take place we all need a common base. Therefore a clear definition from the Abhidhamma is essential. I would be glad if somebody who's familiar with Abhidhamma could clarify this.
best wishes, acinteyyo
I doubt you will get it. I asked similar questions on dhammastudygroup and even Nina couldn't answer them. Citta is "that what experiences" is as closest to the answer one seems to be able to get - meaning you need to define "experience", too. Abhidhamma doesn't seem to be a very exact theory. And as you already stated it does seem to disagree regarding definitions with the suttas. In the suttas nama-rupa is only one link in patticasamupada but in Abhidhamma everything is classified as either nama or rupa including all the other links of DO such as sankhara and vinnana and so on.

I wish you luck in your search. Please share any logical and self-consistent answers you may find with me because I am still interested in the topic.
Hi Freawaru,

I agree until now. It seems to me there is no clear definition of "citta" but this in particular could be the problem. I'm curious about how this thread will go on. In the forest tradition it is said of "citta" to be "the one who knows". I don't claim to have any great insights of some kind but based on my meditation practice I had some experience which comes very near to such an expression also in line with expressions like "mind/heart" or "knowing" or "watching the mind right at the mind". At the moment it seems to me that "citta" according to Abhidhamma means something which is quite similar to the conventional usage of "consciousness" (not viññāna) but somehow containing viññāna, which I consider to be wrong and I hope Abhidhamma doesn't sees it this way.

The main reason why I'm interessted in this topic is to clarify the meaning of "citta" according to Abhidhamma because I see a huge contradiction so far (with D.O.). If this contradiction can't be resolved and the contradiction becomes more evident I feel impelled to disregard Abhidhamma teachings on "citta" and everything evolving from it.

Thus, in my eyes it is very important. Maybe the contradiction has its origins in misconceptions only and because of the meaning of "citta" being the root of this discussion we should be intent on clarification.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Alex123
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Alex123 »

Bubbabuddhist wrote:For goodness sake--you're not going to get a quick answer in a nutshell to a process which takes most of us years or months of study of the abhidhamma to even begin to comprehend. Start with the Nina van Gorken work and then move to the Comprehensive Manual of Abhihidhamma, do a lot of thinking, peruse Buddhaghosa a bit, then we'll talk. :anjali:

J

I have read parts of ADL & CMA. As I remember, I didn't find the answer. If someone knows exact reference to this issue, please post it.
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Alex123 »

acinteyyo wrote: The main reason why I'm interessted in this topic is to clarify the meaning of "citta" according to Abhidhamma

Citta as agent, as instrument and as an activity with as an activity being the most accurate.

pg27
http://books.google.ca/books?id=hxopJgv ... ty&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Alex123
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Alex123 »

Virgo wrote:
Freawaru wrote:whatever we are aware of we can absorb into and realise that it experiences. If there is something that does not experience we cannot be aware of it and thus we cannot discern and classify it. My first absorption was into sound and it does experience.
You think that sound experiences things?


kevinu

Sound is heard. In that way, yes. One knows what is heard.
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acinteyyo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by acinteyyo »

Alex123 wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: The main reason why I'm interessted in this topic is to clarify the meaning of "citta" according to Abhidhamma
Citta as agent, as instrument and as an activity with as an activity being the most accurate.
pg27
http://books.google.ca/books?id=hxopJgv ... ty&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Okay then, it is what Ben posted in the transcription:
The Pali word citta is derived from the verbal root citi, to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object (arammanam cinteti ti cittam). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etana cintenti ti cittam). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamattam cittam).
The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowing an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from the activity of cognizing. The definintions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition. The Buddhist thinkers point out, by means of these definitions, that it is not a self that performs the act of cognition, but citta or consciousness. This citta is nothing other than the act of cognizing, and that act is necessarily impermanent, marked by rise and fall.
Good, I have to think about it. Now it's already too late, I'm tired.
I've got to get up early tomorrow because I've got to go to Inverness, Scottland for professional reasons.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Freawaru
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Freawaru »

Virgo wrote:
Freawaru wrote:whatever we are aware of we can absorb into and realise that it experiences. If there is something that does not experience we cannot be aware of it and thus we cannot discern and classify it. My first absorption was into sound and it does experience.
You think that sound experiences things?


kevinu
What is your definition of "experiences things"?
Freawaru
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Freawaru »

Hi acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote: I agree until now. It seems to me there is no clear definition of "citta" but this in particular could be the problem. I'm curious about how this thread will go on. In the forest tradition it is said of "citta" to be "the one who knows". I don't claim to have any great insights of some kind but based on my meditation practice I had some experience which comes very near to such an expression also in line with expressions like "mind/heart" or "knowing" or "watching the mind right at the mind".
If "citta" refers to "the one who knows" maybe it refers to the sati-sampajanna consciousness. As here:
His consciousness changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of consciousness — alter in accordance with the change in consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Does anyone know the Pali term for "consciousness" in this sutta? Is it "citta"?
At the moment it seems to me that "citta" according to Abhidhamma means something which is quite similar to the conventional usage of "consciousness" (not viññāna) but somehow containing viññāna, which I consider to be wrong and I hope Abhidhamma doesn't sees it this way.
As Nina wrote "citta" is also present during unconscious states. "Even when we are sound asleep and not dreaming citta experiences an object." (Abhidhamma in Daily Life, page 7). Does not sound to me like the conventional usage of consciousness.
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru wrote:]

If "citta" refers to "the one who knows" maybe it refers to the sati-sampajanna consciousness.
"one who knows"? There is no "one who" anything in citta.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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