Nāma-rūpa

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Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:43 am

Greetings,

In the suttas, nāma-rūpa is classified as follows....

SN 12.2: Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/s ... sn12-2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.
Is there an equivalent Abhidhamma classification for these different aspects of nāma and rūpa? Often I read about things being classified as nāma and rūpa by Abhidhamma-oriented folk, and I'm wondering if this next level down gets any attention too, because I'd be particularly interested to see what is said in relation to those 5 aspects of nāma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Virgo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:06 am

Name and form are bad translations in this case Retrofuturist. Mentality and materiality are much better ones. Nama concerns all mental phenomena and rupa concerns physical phenomena.

The five examples of nama listed by the Buddha in the sutta are examples of nama (mentallity). They are not an exhaustive list. Likewise with the materiality mentioned.

In the Abhidhamma, the teaching was given in paramattha terms, not in conventional ones, as it was in the suttas. Therefore, these explanations are fleshed out in Abhidhamma and not in Sutta. Nevertheless, the Buddha taught Abhidhamma without being too scarce with details and without providing too many.

The nama listed in that sutta are all cetasikas, mental factors which arise accompanying individual moments of consciousness.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:11 am

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:The five examples of nama listed by the Buddha in the sutta are examples of nama (mentallity). They are not an exhaustive list.
Is there an exhaustive Nāma list in Abhidhamma? (I already know about the list of derived materiality).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Virgo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:The five examples of nama listed by the Buddha in the sutta are examples of nama (mentallity). They are not an exhaustive list.
Is there an exhaustive list in Abhidhamma?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro, the nama you mentioned are all cetasikas. There are 52 cetasikas. Each cetasika arises accompanying a citta, or moment of consciousness.

Consciousness arises at a base every time. It arises either in dependence upon the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind base, one at a time. With each citta, or moment of consciousness, cetasikas, or mental factors arise. Citta is like the King in knowing the object, such as sound through the ear door, or smell through the nose door, etc. Cetasikas are mental factors that accompany the citta that knows or apprehends the object. There are always at least the minimum seven "universal" cetasikas that arise with each moment of citta, as citta has an object.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:20 am

Greetings Kevin,

These ones?

http://www.palikanon.com/english/intro- ... dix_ii.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Virgo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kevin,

These ones?

http://www.palikanon.com/english/intro- ... dix_ii.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Indeed. :)

There is a good, short work on cetasikas here: http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas.html

Kevin

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:12 am

Greetings Virgo,

Is the practical application of Abhidhamma then to classify mental experience in relation to the 52 cetasikas, as they occur?

Quoting from the link you gave, Nina van Gorkom writes...
A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements.
I'm a little confused about how classifying of defilements itself leads to the development of good qualities. Is it the clear knowledge of what is wholesome and unwholesome which is inherently good, or is it something else which tends to the development of good qualities? Is classification by way of the 52 cetasikas said to be any more beneficial or essential in that sense than classification via the 5 aspects of nāma referred to in the sutta above? Or for that matter, classification via mula (roots) e.g.

AN 3.69: Mula Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Monks, there are these three roots of what is unskillful. Which three? Greed is a root of what is unskillful, aversion is a root of what is unskillful, delusion is a root of what is unskillful. (and so on.....)
I guess what I'm trying to drill down to is, what does the act of cetasika classification actually "do"? In other words, how does it lead to positive outcomes... is it classification alone that is required in and of itself, or is anything else required in order to lead to these positive outcomes?
Virgo wrote:In the Abhidhamma, the teaching was given in paramattha terms, not in conventional ones, as it was in the suttas. Therefore, these explanations are fleshed out in Abhidhamma and not in Sutta.
Hmmm... I'd be a little careful of classifying suttas as "conventional" only, particularly when the nāma list I provided corresponds directly to some of the cetasikas. Elsewhere Cooran has provided reference to suttas which form the nucleus of the codified Abhidhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:
In the Abhidhamma, the teaching was given in paramattha terms, not in conventional ones, as it was in the suttas. Therefore, these explanations are fleshed out in Abhidhamma and not in Sutta.
Hmmm... I'd be a little careful of classifying suttas as "conventional" only, particularly when the nāma list I provided corresponds to 5 of the 52 cetasikas. Elsewhere Cooran has provided reference to suttas which form the nucleus of the codified Abhidhamma.
According to the traditional Theravadin teaching, the paramattha terms are not more true or better than the "conventional." Each can lead to awakening.

From the commentary of to the Anguttara Nikaya:
Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-kathā, whereas
references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric
individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of
mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-kathā. One who is capable of understanding
and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out
in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on
sammuti-kathā. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting
the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the
Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-kathā. To one who is capable of
awakening to the truth through sammuti-kathā , the teaching is not presented on the basis of
paramattha-kathā, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through
paramattha-kathā, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-kathā. There is this
simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their
meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which
each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the
suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-kathā. It is by taking into
consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the
Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way
of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to
Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena.
AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55

http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
sammuti-kathā is not inferior to paramattha-kathā.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Ben » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:39 am

Hi Retro

I would suggest that perhaps Nina Van Gorkom is alluding to is the contemplation of awakening factors (satipatthana), in particular, the awakening factor of dhammavicaya: investigation of dhammas.
Such investigation-of-dhammas seems to combine two aspects" on the one hand an inquiry into the nature of experience (by taking "dhammas" to stand for "phenomena"), and on the other a correlation of this experience with the teachings of the Buddha (the "Dhamma"). This two-fold character also undelies the word "investigation" (vicaya), derived from the verb vicinati, whose range of meaning includes both "investigating" and "discriminating". Thus "investigation of dhammas" can be understood as an investigation of subjective experience based on the discrimination gained through familiarity with the Dhamma. Such discrimination refers particularly to the ability to distinguish between what is wholesome or skilful for progress on the path, and what is unwholesome orunskilful.
-- Ven. Analayo, Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:59 am

Greetings Ben,

Yes, that's along the lines of what I'm trying to work out. That's why I mentioned the mula (roots), because that seems an easier classification method, with 6 roots (3 wholesome, 3 unwholesome)compared to the 52 cetasikas.

Is the point just to differentiate wholesome from unwholesome as it is in the case of mula, or is it also to dissolve the illusion of self? I assume there is some good reason why it's more elaborate... as you can probably see, my question is at least as much about the "why" as it is about the "what".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,

Yes, that's along the lines of what I'm trying to work out. That's why I mentioned the mula (roots), because that seems an easier classification method, with 6 roots (3 wholesome, 3 unwholesome)compared to the 52 cetasikas.

Is the point just to differentiate wholesome from unwholesome as it is in the case of mula, or is it also to dissolve the illusion of self? I assume there is some good reason why it's more elaborate... as you can probably see, my question is at least as much about the "why" as it is about the "what".

Metta,
Retro.
"Why" and "how" are the big questions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:41 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:"Why" and "how" are the big questions.
Yes. I'd be very interested in any classical explanations for either. Abhidhamma has lots of "what", but I'm still a bit confused about the "why" (what is the benefit?) and the "how" (how is it applied?).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Ben » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:44 am

Hi Retro

I think possibly both.
§30 Purification of View
Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes.

Guide to §30
Purification of view s so called because it helps to purify one of the wrong view of a permanent self. This purification is arrived at in the coure of meditation by discerning the personality as a compound of mental and material factors which occur interdependently, without any controlling self within or behind them. This stage is also called the analytical knowledge of mind-and-matter. (namarupavavatthananana) because the mental and material phenomena are distinguished by way of their characteristics, etc.

-- Ch IX, compendium of meditation subjects, A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by Ben » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:"Why" and "how" are the big questions.
Yes. I'd be very interested in any classical explanations for either. Abhidhamma has lots of "what", but I'm still a bit confused about the "why" (what is the benefit?) and the "how" (how is it applied?).

Metta,
Retro. :)
I'm certainly no expert on the Abhidhamma and I think your question requires the attention of one who has a deep familiarity with the Abhidhamma in its context of the Tipitaka and the early commentarial literature.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: Nāma-rūpa

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:49 am

Greetings Ben,

Interesting quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi, thanks.

It seems similar in function then (to me at least) to sutta teachings on the five aggregates, six sense bases and such, which cover this territory too.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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