how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Jeff_
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Jeff_ » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:49 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm
Volo wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:27 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:27 am
Certainly no possibilty of thinking about different beings and so on- that can only ocur pre-jhana.
The only question then is what is the object during jhana in the case of metta.
All Abhidhamma books I know say the object is a being(s). Why do you think it cannot be an object? Of course, you cannot "jump" from one being to another, but if you have taken a certain being/beings as object why cannot you "stick" to them during the jhāna?
You're not really sticking to and paying attention to the object you're doing metta to though. You're frozen in a state of a blurry kasina snapshot, and only aware of that past tense snapshot for some predetermined about of time, and then only really doing metta before or after the jhana, not while you're in it.
Possibly monks, whose footing in the Dhamma is more secure because of their commitment, can dip out of the world for a while riding a train of goodwill and not be doing anyone any harm? Seen from a conservation of energy standpoint, they might be seen as making the best use of their alms food in this way: striving with zeal and then resting deeply. It is possible such a process has a give and take that is not evident at first glance.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:47 pm

You can read the OP (original first post in this thread) again, or even look at the title that's in front of every msg in this thread, which I'll now cut and paste here for emphasis:
how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?
The conclusion is, you can't. If you're in vism. first jhana, all you have awareness of is a blurry visual snapshot of of a kasina at the moment of the 5th javana impulsion before you entered appana samadhi. Vitakka in this first 'jhana' is just 'placing the mind' and vicara is 'keeping it connected.' That's not metta practice. That's your mind being in a frozen state of looking at a mental snapshot of a visual object.

If you read Vimt. practice of metta on the other hand, which is linked in the OP, it works just like EBT. WHILE one is in the first three jhanas, one can DO metta, having free will to choose who, where, size of mahaggata citta to expand to. In first jhana for EBT and Vimt, one can have the thought, 'may my mom be happy.' In vism. jhana, one can not do any of that. So how is that doing metta?

Maybe Mike is right that Vism. is only claiming to use all of those 40 meditation subjects as a method of entry into 4 jhanas. Someone will have to dig up the statements in pali Vism. and look at it carefully. But that's not the impression I got from reading the English translation, and the preexisting understanding of people earlier than Vism. would expect that one can do metta WHILE in the 3 jhanas.


Volo wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:53 pm
frank k wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm
You're not really sticking to and paying attention to the object you're doing metta to though. You're frozen in a state of a blurry kasina snapshot, and only aware of that past tense snapshot for some predetermined about of time, and then only really doing metta before or after the jhana, not while you're in it.
I don't understand what the above has to do either with your OP question or with my answer...
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confusedlayman
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:47 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... in-4.html

for vimt. and vism:
http://lucid24.org/sted/ebt/not/index.html

EBT:
http://lucid24.org/sted/4bv/index.html

Vimt. matches up quite well with EBT, especially you read the section on thoughts of metta and 'fixed meditation' , 'jhana'. It doesn't segregate the thinking in access concentration.

In Vimt., which uses an earlier much less corrupt version of abhdhamma, access concentration means there's spikes of interruption of 5 hindrances, and appana samadhi, fixed penetration, means that 5 hindrances do not interrupt at all. A very reasonable definition that actually seems to work with EBT, by adding something without clobbering existing meanings and definitions.

Vism. on the the other hand, it's a complete mess of contradictions and incoherence.
I challenge any Abhidhamma expert to give a clear explanation of how the jhanas work while doing the 4 brahmaviharas. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you're in appana samadhi, absorption fixed 'jhana', then how could you have any awareness and ability to direct intentions of metta in a direction, or targeting a specific person or group of beings? You'd have to be an upacara samadhi. But according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
U can do in first jhana. But I maybe wrong . But 1 jhana metta means u induce feeling that’s it.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
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mikenz66
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:58 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:12 pm
Mike, you're not reading what I wrote carefully, and you don't understand the specific issues. Best to stop commenting on this thread until you do. And you need to stop with the black and white division of people who do "deep" jhana versus people trying to argue for "shallow" jhana. The world is more nuanced than that, and this thread is not about that at all. It's very specific.

edit, addition:
In EBT and Vimt. (with its earlier canonical Abhidhamma), one DOES metta while in the first 3 jhanas, and one is aware of doing metta, aware of the effects being caused by doing metta, and able to adjust the metta in change of direction, encompassing more beings, etc.

I see your point that you think Vism. is only trying to claim that metta and 4bv is used to ENTER the 3 jhanas, not actually do it WHILE in 3 jhanas. Looking at other subjects from the 40, and the way they try to do the 'breaking down the barriers', it sure looks like Vism. is doing a public relations job trying to convince people that one does metta WHILE in the first 3 jhanas, because that's how it was understood and practiced in the EBT and Vimt (which relied on earlier Abhdhamma).
Well that's the point. Until you show us a passage in Vism. where it describes metta practice during jhana, I'd assume that your query about of "inconsistency" is unfounded. I don't understand why you think I'm not paying attention, since this is the "specific issue" - that the absorption is said to be so deep in Vism. jhana that it is not possible to do metta practice in the sense of wishing well to particular people, and so on.

Or perhaps you're talking about an inconsistency with the suttas. Perhaps you could quote the sutta passages on the Brahmaviharas and explain how they relate to Vism.
Here's one:
“He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.
...
“He understands thus: ‘There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape from this whole field of perception.’

“When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one bathed with the inner bathing.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn7/en/bodhi
I guess the passage "he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will" is the one in question?

:heart:
Mike

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Volo
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:56 am

frank k wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:47 pm
If you're in vism. first jhana, all you have awareness of is a blurry visual snapshot of of a kasina at the moment of the 5th javana impulsion before you entered appana samadhi.

Kasina and metta are different practices. In metta you develop mind (consciousness) with a strong adosa, which takes being as an object.
That's not metta practice.
What you have described ("awareness of is a blurry visual snapshot of of a kasina") is indeed not a metta practice, but this is something you invented yourself and ascribed it to Vism.
If you read Vimt. practice of metta on the other hand, which is linked in the OP, it works just like EBT. WHILE one is in the first three jhanas, one can DO metta, having free will to choose who, where, size of mahaggata citta to expand to.
Since you already demonstrated very inaccurate understanding of Vism, I cannot trust your description of Vimtm. Therefore, please provide quotes from the texts for all your claims.
In first jhana for EBT and Vimt, one can have the thought, 'may my mom be happy.' In vism. jhana, one can not do any of that. So how is that doing metta?
Indeed, how can one do metta without constant mumbling metta-mantra? Please, explain, what is metta in your opinion? Is it a phrase, which you repeat or think? Or is this phrase is used to develop something else? We can think "may he be happy" without real (let's call vaguely) "inner feeling". So, isn't then this thought is only a support, not a real metta? Metta is adosa - mind's quality of harmlessness, not a thought or phrase.
Think about it...
Cheers.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am

Well, yes, that's the main thing we should be concerned about, that the Vism. contradicts the meaning and understanding of an EBT standard. The EBT passage you quote below is really the only metta (and brahmavihara) instruction given everywhere in the EBT. Look up the Vism. gloss of how they understand the "sabbattataya". Vism. interprets that as "all living beings". Sabba -atta -taya.

It would be like I said, "mike, I'm going to have a 60 minute interactive conversation with you". Then we get on the phone, after 5 seconds I enter metta appana samadhi, and then 5 seconds before the 60 minute conversation is over, I reemerge, with no recollection of anything you said for the 59.90 minutes of that conversation. Did we actually have a full conversation? Or did you think we had a conversation, but all I can remember is 10 seconds of saying hello and good bye, and 59.90 minutes of being blanked out? If you have psychic powers, or just good samadhi and good intuition, you could perceive that I radiated metta just before I blanked out for most of that hour. But could I really be said to be sending you metta for 60 minutes? Only a vism. apologist would think so.

Volo, we're done talking. You're just living in denial, grasping at straws, not actually trying to advance the discussion. If you're sincere, then show us where in the canonical 7 books of abhidhamma appana and upacara samadhi are defined in a way that supports Vism. appana and upacara samadhi understanding. I don't think it exists.

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:58 pm
...
Or perhaps you're talking about an inconsistency with the suttas. Perhaps you could quote the sutta passages on the Brahmaviharas and explain how they relate to Vism.
Here's one:
“He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.
...
“He understands thus: ‘There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape from this whole field of perception.’

“When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one bathed with the inner bathing.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn7/en/bodhi
I guess the passage "he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will" is the one in question?

:heart:
Mike
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:00 pm

frank k wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am
Volo, we're done talking. You're just living in denial, grasping at straws, not actually trying to advance the discussion.
:focus:
If you're sincere, then show us where in the canonical 7 books of abhidhamma appana and upacara samadhi are defined in a way that supports Vism. appana and upacara samadhi understanding. I don't think it exists.
May be you will first point to us where in the stock phrase for metta Buddha said to think 'may my mom be happy.'
frank k wrote:If you read Vimt. practice of metta on the other hand, which is linked in the OP, it works just like EBT. WHILE one is in the first three jhanas, one can DO metta, having free will to choose who, where, size of mahaggata citta to expand to. In first jhana for EBT and Vimt, one can have the thought, 'may my mom be happy.'
He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.

So mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ, tathā tatiyaṃ, tathā catutthaṃ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati;

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 pm

frank k wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am
Well, yes, that's the main thing we should be concerned about, that the Vism. contradicts the meaning and understanding of an EBT standard. The EBT passage you quote below is really the only metta (and brahmavihara) instruction given everywhere in the EBT. Look up the Vism. gloss of how they understand the "sabbattataya". Vism. interprets that as "all living beings". Sabba -atta -taya.
Well, I'm not a Vism. apologist, and, in any case, arguing about whether or not Vism. jhana correct or not is not appropriate in the Abihdhamma section. However I wonder what the Commentary to this passage says:
“He abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will.
...
“He understands thus: ‘There is this, there is the inferior, there is the superior, and beyond there is an escape from this whole field of perception.’

“When he knows and sees thus, his mind is liberated ...
The key question is at what point do they enter and leave jhana. Clearly, in a Commentary interpretation, they would leave jhana before the "He understands thus..." passage.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:54 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 pm
...
The key question is at what point do they enter and leave jhana. Clearly, in a Commentary interpretation, they would leave jhana before the "He understands thus..." passage.

:heart:
Mike

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ions.html
see the hyperlink under the V&V in first jhana (from article above)
Even in Vism. and Abhidhamma V&V still means mental recitation of speech. After exiting 2nd jhāna, one mentally chants, 'earth [kasina], earth', to get into third jhāna.

in Vimt., which is using the same Abhidhamma definition of V&V, one can do first jhana and metta simultaneous with V&V of "happy, happy, etc" at minimum for V&V. Even Vism., if it followed canonical abhidhamma, should allow for that in first jhana, but they do not because they redefined appana samadhi, jhana, vitakka (within the appana samadhi, but it still means ordinary mental recitation of 'thinking' outside of jhana).

So why should I, and everyone else not be confused when Vism. proposes a very restricted and weird version of metta that contradicts, EBT, Vimt, and canonical abhidhamma? They deliberately present their Vism. metta instructions in a way that SEEMS like it's NOT contradicting the prevailing understanding of the practice of metta.

I already knew in Vism's anapanasati for example, and the 4 formless attainments, that being in Vism. jhana and doing those practices were separate things, not done simultaneously. But for some reason it wasn't until recently that I really noticed that Vism metta and 4 brahma viharas were also divorced in the same way.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:53 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:54 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 pm
...
The key question is at what point do they enter and leave jhana. Clearly, in a Commentary interpretation, they would leave jhana before the "He understands thus..." passage.

:heart:
Mike

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ions.html
see the hyperlink under the V&V in first jhana (from article above)
Even in Vism. and Abhidhamma V&V still means mental recitation of speech. After exiting 2nd jhāna, one mentally chants, 'earth [kasina], earth', to get into third jhāna.

in Vimt., which is using the same Abhidhamma definition of V&V, one can do first jhana and metta simultaneous with V&V of "happy, happy, etc" at minimum for V&V. Even Vism., if it followed canonical abhidhamma, should allow for that in first jhana, but they do not because they redefined appana samadhi, jhana, vitakka (within the appana samadhi, but it still means ordinary mental recitation of 'thinking' outside of jhana).

So why should I, and everyone else not be confused when Vism. proposes a very restricted and weird version of metta that contradicts, EBT, Vimt, and canonical abhidhamma? They deliberately present their Vism. metta instructions in a way that SEEMS like it's NOT contradicting the prevailing understanding of the practice of metta.

I already knew in Vism's anapanasati for example, and the 4 formless attainments, that being in Vism. jhana and doing those practices were separate things, not done simultaneously. But for some reason it wasn't until recently that I really noticed that Vism metta and 4 brahma viharas were also divorced in the same way.
\yea there is slight mental voice which says wow wow and also,thinks let’s go next jhana or let’s be in this jhana forever
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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