how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

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mikenz66
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:16 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:41 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:06 pm
Do you mean the details of the nimitta are different, or the way it is used to get into jhana?
It is nimitta only in the sense that when it appears (i.e. when you have equal metta to yourself, dear, neutral and enemy persons) your concentration is strong enough to suppress nivaranas and to enter upacara samadhi and jhana. It is not some kind of light or mental image like in ānāpānasati or kasina.
...
Thanks, but it's still the method the VM describes to enter jhana, isn't it?

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:48 am

frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
But according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
More from the Vism:
116. The meaning is this: “Bhikkhu, when this basic concentration has been developed by you by means of loving-kindness, then, instead of resting content with just that much, you should make this basic concentration reach quadruple and quintuple jhána in other objects by [further] developing it in the way beginning ‘With applied thought.’
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:51 am

Vitakka & vicara have been explained to you many times; but you choose to adhere to your wrong views. The Visuddhimagga says:
It appears to me that you have lot of theoretical knowledge but not the practical.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:51 am
It appears to me that you have lot of theoretical knowledge but not the practical.
The Visuddhimagga appears to say vitakka & vicara in jhana is the striking & staying with the counterpart sign (nimitta). But you, SarathW, keep posting vitakka & vicara in jhana are the three wholesome thoughts of asuba, metta & non-harming.
Visuddhimagga wrote:Simultaneously with his acquiring the counterpart sign... applied thought with the characteristic of directing the mind on to that same sign, and sustained thought accomplishing the function of pressing on the sign.... So the jhána factors become manifest.
You keep posting practise such as in the video is done in jhana & Imee Ooi is a jhana master: :smile:
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:56 am

The Visuddhimagga appears to say vitakka & vicara in jhana is the striking & staying with the counterpart sign (nimitta).
You are talking about Samatha. I am talking about Vipassana.
In my opinion Visuddhimagga is mainly about Samatha practice.
The Suttas are mainly about Vipassana.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:35 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:16 am
Thanks, but it's still the method the VM describes to enter jhana, isn't it?
Yes. I think it's also clear from the suttas that by practicing metta one can attain jhānas, since Buddha says that one can be reborn in the Brahma world through this practice:
AN 8.1 wrote:Bhikkhus, when the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness has been pursued, developed, and cultivated, made a vehicle and basis, carried out, consolidated, and properly undertaken, eight benefits are to be expected. What eight?
(1) “One sleeps well; (2) one awakens happily; (3) one does not have bad dreams; (4) one is pleasing to human beings; (5) one is pleasing to spirits;1615 (6) deities protect one; (7) fire, poison, and weapons do not injure one; and (8) if one does not penetrate further, one moves on to the brahmā world.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:48 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:03 am
Why can't you practice Metta in first Jhana?
You find wholesome Vitakka and Vicara in first Jhana.
That's the whole point of my thread.
In EBT sutta, and even in Vimt., which uses an earlier less corrupt form of Abhidhamma,
the 3 samma sankappa's correspond to the 3 right thoughts, one of which is abyapada vitakka, "good will thoughts".

Canonical Abhidhamma, and in Vimt., it doesn't segregate that abyapada vitakka into access concentration. It's part of first jhana.
It's only in vism. that the segregation takes place.

And as you can see, the best that they can do to explain (Volo and no other Abhidhamma experts have spoken up so far) is quote some scripture that doesn't make any sense. How can one be doing metta in first jhana if one is frozen in the vism. jhana appana samadhi, unable to examine phenomena, who they're directing metta to, and what direction, etc.?

RobertK? Ven. Dhammanando?
In private message, I asked Ven. Dhammando a related question about vitakka in first 2 books of Abhidhamma, and he has so far not responded to that either. It's not looking good for Abhidhamma, and I am asking this on the Abhidhamma forum, if one can not explain basic principles that don't see to be consistent or coherent.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:56 am

I don't know where it says off hand, but I'm sure it says it somewhere. Both Vimt. and Vism. say one can do metta from first 3 jhanas only, not 4th jhana.
But in EBT and Vimt., "doing metta" involves being able to actively will, perceive your recipients, direction, and so forth.
Vism., once it refers you to earth kasina from their metta first jhana instructions, at that point you'd be in appana samadhi where it's not possible to do metta in the way it's normally understood. Whereas in Vimt. their appana samadhi just means your jhanas are rock solid with no interruption from 5 hindrances, not a frozen state where will and comprehension is not possible.

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:03 pm
frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:38 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am
...
Hi MIke,
I have already read what Vism. and Vimt. says about doing metta while in 3rd jhana.
Vimt. makes sense: one has vitakka (thinking thoughts of metta) while doing first jhana with metta. Same as EBT.
Vism.: doesn't make sense. You have to be in access concentration, not 3rd jhana, to be directing metta towards a being and towards a spatial direction. You would expect Vism. to say, like it does with some of the other meditation subjects, that metta can only take you to access. But Vism. says one can do metta in the first 3 jhanas. How?
Can you quote where Vism. says that you are directing metta in various directions when in third jhana? I may have missed that. My impression from the text is is that once one has the concentration sign one works with that and enters jhana.

I'm not arguing for that particular approach, just trying to understand whether it's actually as inconsistent as you say.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:28 pm

In metta object is/are beings to whom you send metta, metta itself is adosa - a mental factor associated with the consciousness, which takes that being(s) in a given direction.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:35 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:56 am
I don't know where it says off hand, but I'm sure it says it somewhere. Both Vimt. and Vism. say one can do metta from first 3 jhanas only, not 4th jhana.
If you haven't studied the passages in detail, why claim that it is inconsistent? Just stick with your arguments for why jhana does not need to be as deep an absorption as described in Vism. etc.

My understanding was that, according to the Vism. approach, metta could be used to enter jhanas 1-3, not that one could be repeating "may X be happy" while in those jhanas, which is presumably impossible in the depth of absorption described in Vism.
See the passage I quoted above: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=36302#p543253

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by robertk » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:27 am

And as you can see, the best that they can do to explain (Volo and no other Abhidhamma experts have spoken up so far) is quote some scripture that doesn't make any sense. How can one be doing metta in first jhana if one is frozen in the vism. jhana appana samadhi, unable to examine phenomena, who they're directing metta to, and what direction, etc.?

RobertK? Ven. Dhammanando?
In private message
,
It's a great question and mike and volo have brought out the main points already.

So in jhana obviously there is only one object that is taken repeatedly by the jhana cittas. Certainly no possibilty of thinking about different beings and so on- that can only ocur pre-jhana.
The only question then is what is the object during jhana in the case of metta.
I am busy today but will try to look up the texts to give a precise answer

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:27 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:27 am
Certainly no possibilty of thinking about different beings and so on- that can only ocur pre-jhana.
The only question then is what is the object during jhana in the case of metta.
All Abhidhamma books I know say the object is a being(s). Why do you think it cannot be an object? Of course, you cannot "jump" from one being to another, but if you have taken a certain being/beings as object why cannot you "stick" to them during the jhāna?

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:12 pm

Mike, you're not reading what I wrote carefully, and you don't understand the specific issues. Best to stop commenting on this thread until you do. And you need to stop with the black and white division of people who do "deep" jhana versus people trying to argue for "shallow" jhana. The world is more nuanced than that, and this thread is not about that at all. It's very specific.

edit, addition:
In EBT and Vimt. (with its earlier canonical Abhidhamma), one DOES metta while in the first 3 jhanas, and one is aware of doing metta, aware of the effects being caused by doing metta, and able to adjust the metta in change of direction, encompassing more beings, etc.

I see your point that you think Vism. is only trying to claim that metta and 4bv is used to ENTER the 3 jhanas, not actually do it WHILE in 3 jhanas. Looking at other subjects from the 40, and the way they try to do the 'breaking down the barriers', it sure looks like Vism. is doing a public relations job trying to convince people that one does metta WHILE in the first 3 jhanas, because that's how it was understood and practiced in the EBT and Vimt (which relied on earlier Abhdhamma).

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:35 pm
frank k wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:56 am
I don't know where it says off hand, but I'm sure it says it somewhere. Both Vimt. and Vism. say one can do metta from first 3 jhanas only, not 4th jhana.
If you haven't studied the passages in detail, why claim that it is inconsistent? Just stick with your arguments for why jhana does not need to be as deep an absorption as described in Vism. etc.

My understanding was that, according to the Vism. approach, metta could be used to enter jhanas 1-3, not that one could be repeating "may X be happy" while in those jhanas, which is presumably impossible in the depth of absorption described in Vism.
See the passage I quoted above: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=36302#p543253

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm

Volo wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:27 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:27 am
Certainly no possibilty of thinking about different beings and so on- that can only ocur pre-jhana.
The only question then is what is the object during jhana in the case of metta.
All Abhidhamma books I know say the object is a being(s). Why do you think it cannot be an object? Of course, you cannot "jump" from one being to another, but if you have taken a certain being/beings as object why cannot you "stick" to them during the jhāna?
You're not really sticking to and paying attention to the object you're doing metta to though. You're frozen in a state of a blurry kasina snapshot, and only aware of that past tense snapshot for some predetermined about of time, and then only really doing metta before or after the jhana, not while you're in it.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:53 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:32 pm
You're not really sticking to and paying attention to the object you're doing metta to though. You're frozen in a state of a blurry kasina snapshot, and only aware of that past tense snapshot for some predetermined about of time, and then only really doing metta before or after the jhana, not while you're in it.
I don't understand what the above has to do either with your OP question or with my answer...

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