how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

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frank k
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how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... in-4.html

for vimt. and vism:
http://lucid24.org/sted/ebt/not/index.html

EBT:
http://lucid24.org/sted/4bv/index.html

Vimt. matches up quite well with EBT, especially you read the section on thoughts of metta and 'fixed meditation' , 'jhana'. It doesn't segregate the thinking in access concentration.

In Vimt., which uses an earlier much less corrupt version of abhdhamma, access concentration means there's spikes of interruption of 5 hindrances, and appana samadhi, fixed penetration, means that 5 hindrances do not interrupt at all. A very reasonable definition that actually seems to work with EBT, by adding something without clobbering existing meanings and definitions.

Vism. on the the other hand, it's a complete mess of contradictions and incoherence.
I challenge any Abhidhamma expert to give a clear explanation of how the jhanas work while doing the 4 brahmaviharas. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you're in appana samadhi, absorption fixed 'jhana', then how could you have any awareness and ability to direct intentions of metta in a direction, or targeting a specific person or group of beings? You'd have to be an upacara samadhi. But according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
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Volo
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:18 am

frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
In Vimt., which uses an earlier much less corrupt version of abhdhamma, access concentration means there's spikes of interruption of 5 hindrances, and appana samadhi, fixed penetration, means that 5 hindrances do not interrupt at all.
Where does Vimtm say this? Vimuttimagga seems to say the opposite:
Vimuttimagga, p. 78-80 wrote:The overcoming of the five hindrances is access.
...
If a man does not overcome the (five) hindrances, he is blind as regards access-meditation.
I challenge any Abhidhamma expert to give a clear explanation of how the jhanas work while doing the 4 brahmaviharas. It doesn't make much sense to me. If you're in appana samadhi, absorption fixed 'jhana', then how could you have any awareness and ability to direct intentions of metta in a direction, or targeting a specific person or group of beings? You'd have to be an upacara samadhi. But according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 am

frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
how the jhanas work while doing the 4 brahmaviharas... according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
Where does the Vism. say brahmaviharas are practised in jhana? Thanks. While in jhana, the heart is suffused with rapture & internal good-will. When emerging from jhana, the entirety of his rapturous good-will does not totally cease. I imagine the jhana adept has a very loving mind, both in & out of jhana. :smile:
Now, it is by means of one of these jhánas beginning with the first that he “Dwells pervading (intent upon) one direction with his heart endued with lovingkindness, likewise the second direction, likewise the third direction, likewise the fourth direction, and so above, below, and around; everywhere and equally he dwells pervading the entire world with his heart endued with lovingkindness, abundant, exalted, measureless, free from enmity, and free from affliction”... For this versatility comes about only in one whose consciousness has reached absorption in the first jhána and the rest.... And here endued with loving-kindness means possessing loving-kindness. With his heart (cetasá): with his mind (cittena).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:24 am
frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 am
how the jhanas work while doing the 4 brahmaviharas... according to Vism., one can do metta in first 3 jhanas.
Where does the Vism. say brahmaviharas are practised in jhana? ...
The method is given in Chapter IX. According to that, one develops a "counterpart sign" (nimitta) via metta, and then uses that to enter jhana.
43. Thus the sign and access are obtained by this bhikkhu simultaneously
with the breaking down of the barriers. But when breaking down of the barriers
has been effected, he reaches absorption in the way described under the earth
kasina without trouble by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing
that same sign.

At this point he has attained the first jhána, which abandons five factors,
possesses five factors, is good in three ways, is endowed with ten characteristics,
and is accompanied by loving-kindness. And when that has been obtained,
then by cultivating, developing, and repeatedly practicing that same sign, he
successively reaches the second and third jhánas in the fourfold system, and the
second, third and fourth in the fivefold system.
Similarly for breathing. Chapter VIII:
220. So as soon as the sign appears, his hindrances are suppressed, his
defilements subside, his mindfulness is established, and his consciousness is
concentrated in access concentration.
...
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:22 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am
The method is given in Chapter IX. According to that, one develops a "counterpart sign" (nimitta) via metta, and then uses that to enter jhana.
:offtopic:
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:22 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am
The method is given in Chapter IX. According to that, one develops a "counterpart sign" (nimitta) via metta, and then uses that to enter jhana.
:offtopic:
I believe that in a topic "how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?", discussing how jhana is entered as a result of metta is extremely on topic. As you said, it never says that one "does metta" in the first jhana. The metta is dropped in favour of the counterpart sign.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:21 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 am
The metta is dropped in favour of the counterpart sign.
If so, metta is not practised in jhana, according to Vism, but it seems only before & after jhana. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Volo
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:29 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 am
As you said, it never says that one "does metta" in the first jhana. The metta is dropped in favour of the counterpart sign.
I think for metta the sign and breaking down the barriers is the same thing. Basically nimitta here means the yogi attained such a deep level of metta. It is different from ānāpāna nimitta.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by frank k » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:38 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am
...
Hi MIke,
I have already read what Vism. and Vimt. says about doing metta while in 3rd jhana.
Vimt. makes sense: one has vitakka (thinking thoughts of metta) while doing first jhana with metta. Same as EBT.
Vism.: doesn't make sense. You have to be in access concentration, not 3rd jhana, to be directing metta towards a being and towards a spatial direction. You would expect Vism. to say, like it does with some of the other meditation subjects, that metta can only take you to access. But Vism. says one can do metta in the first 3 jhanas. How?


Volo: you might need a better filter to determine what is superfluous and what is essential. If Vism. can not even resolve the basic contradiction above, perhaps it's time for you to check if you have biases and blind faith in doctrines that are incoherent.
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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:03 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:38 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:50 am
...
Hi MIke,
I have already read what Vism. and Vimt. says about doing metta while in 3rd jhana.
Vimt. makes sense: one has vitakka (thinking thoughts of metta) while doing first jhana with metta. Same as EBT.
Vism.: doesn't make sense. You have to be in access concentration, not 3rd jhana, to be directing metta towards a being and towards a spatial direction. You would expect Vism. to say, like it does with some of the other meditation subjects, that metta can only take you to access. But Vism. says one can do metta in the first 3 jhanas. How?
Can you quote where Vism. says that you are directing metta in various directions when in third jhana? I may have missed that. My impression from the text is is that once one has the concentration sign one works with that and enters jhana.

I'm not arguing for that particular approach, just trying to understand whether it's actually as inconsistent as you say.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:06 pm

Volo wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:29 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:43 am
As you said, it never says that one "does metta" in the first jhana. The metta is dropped in favour of the counterpart sign.
I think for metta the sign and breaking down the barriers is the same thing. Basically nimitta here means the yogi attained such a deep level of metta. It is different from ānāpāna nimitta.
Do you mean the details of the nimitta are different, or the way it is used to get into jhana?

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:51 pm

“… though he sincerely undertook those precepts, the fruit of developing loving kindness [metta] even just to the extent of a whiff of scent, would have been greater.

“… though he developed loving kindness to the extent of a whiff of scent, the fruit of cultivating the thought of impermanence, even for the moment of a finger snap, would have been greater.”


Velāma Sutta
just to the extent of a whiff of scent

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by Volo » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:06 pm
Do you mean the details of the nimitta are different, or the way it is used to get into jhana?
It is nimitta only in the sense that when it appears (i.e. when you have equal metta to yourself, dear, neutral and enemy persons) your concentration is strong enough to suppress nivaranas and to enter upacara samadhi and jhana. It is not some kind of light or mental image like in ānāpānasati or kasina.

Here what commentary to Vism says:
253. nimittanti yathā kasiṇakammaṭṭhānādīsu taṃtaṃkasiṇamaṇḍalādipariggahamukhena bhāvanāvasena laddhaṃ uggahanimittaṃ nissāya jhānassa gocarabhāvena paṭibhāganimittaṃ upatiṭṭhati, na evamidha upaṭṭhitaṃ nimittaṃ nāma atthi. yo panāyaṃ yathāvutto sīmāsambhedo laddho, sveva nimittaṃ viyāti nimittaṃ. tasmiṃ hi laddhe bhāvanāya sātisayattā nīvaraṇāni vikkhambhitāneva honti, kilesā sannisinnāva, upacārasamādhinā cittaṃ samāhitameva.
Here is my quick approximate translation:
"Nimitta": Like in kasina and so forth based on development of grasping kasina circle there is arising of uggahanimitta, and supporting by it comes about patibhaga nimitta of jhana; it is not like this here nimitta comes about. But as said above it's obtaining breaking down the barriers, it is called nimitta "like nimitta". Because when it is obtained nivaranas are suppressed, kilesas are quieted, and mind is concentrated on upacara samadhi.

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:03 am

Why can't you practice Metta in first Jhana?
You find wholesome Vitakka and Vicara in first Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: how do you do metta in vism. first jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:03 am
You find wholesome Vitakka and Vicara in first Jhana.
Vitakka & vicara have been explained to you many times; but you choose to adhere to your wrong views. The Visuddhimagga says:
Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic of directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. Sustained thinking (vicaraóa) is sustained thought (vicára); continued sustainment (anusañcaraóa), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].

And, though sometimes not separate, applied thought is the first impact of the mind in the sense that it is both gross and inceptive, like the striking of a bell. Sustained thought is the act of keeping the mind anchored, in the sense that it is subtle with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the ringing of the bell. Applied thought intervenes, being the interference of consciousness at the time of first arousing [thought], like a bird’s spreading out its wings when about to soar into the air, and like a bee’s diving towards a lotus when it is minded to follow up the scent of it. The behaviour of sustained thought is quiet, being the near non-interference of consciousness, like the bird’s planing with outspread wings after soaring into the air, and like the bee’s buzzing above the lotus after it has dived towards it.

90. In the commentary to the Book of Twos this is said: “Applied thought occurs as a state of directing the mind onto an object, like the movement of a large bird taking off into the air by engaging the air with both wings and forcing them downwards. For it causes absorption by being unified. Sustained thought occurs with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the bird’s movement when it is using (activating) its wings for the purpose of keeping hold on the air. For it keeps pressing the object”. That fits in with the latter’s occurrence as anchoring. This difference of theirs becomes evident in the first and second jhánas [in the fivefold reckoning].

91. Furthermore, applied thought is like the hand that grips firmly and sustained thought is like the hand that rubs, when one grips a tarnished metal dish firmly with one hand and rubs it with powder and oil and a woollen pad with the other hand. Likewise, when a potter has spun his wheel with a stroke on the stick and is making a dish, his supporting hand is like applied thought and his hand that moves back and forth is like sustained thought. Likewise, when one is drawing a circle, the pin that stays fixed down in the centre is like applied thought, which directs onto the object, and the pin that revolves round it is like sustained thought, which continuously presses.

92. So this jhána occurs together with this applied thought and this sustained thought and it is called, “accompanied by applied and sustained thought” as a tree is called “accompanied by flowers and fruits.” But in the Vibhanga the teaching is given in terms of a person in the way beginning, “He is possessed, fully possessed, of this applied thought and this sustained thought” (Vibh 257). The meaning should be regarded in the same way there too.

106. But applied thought directs the mind onto the object; sustained thought keeps it anchored there. Happiness produced by the success of the effort refreshes the mind whose effort has succeeded through not being distracted by those hindrances; and bliss intensifies it for the same reason. Then unification aided by this directing onto, this anchoring, this refreshing and this intensifying, evenly and rightly centres (III.3) the mind with its remaining associated states
on the object consisting in unity. Consequently, possession of five factors should be understood as the arising of these five, namely, applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss and unification of mind.

For applied thought arises here directing the mind on to the object in an extremely lucid manner, and sustained thought does so pressing the object very hard, and the happiness and bliss pervade the entire body. Hence it is said: “And there is nothing of his whole body not permeated by the happiness and bliss born of seclusion” (D I 73). And unification too arises in the complete contact with the object that the surface of a box’s lid has with the surface of its base. This is how they differ from the others.

Simultaneously with his acquiring the counterpart sign... applied thought with the characteristic of directing the mind on to that same sign, and sustained thought accomplishing the function of pressing on the sign.... So the jhána factors become manifest.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:36 am, edited 9 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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