Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

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Perezoso
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Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Perezoso »

What causes a kalapa or dhamma to arise and cease? Are they dependent on themselves since they arise in a group?

Where is this explained?

The Abhidharmahrdaya (Taisho 1550, 811b20ff) states that the operation is reflexive and reciprocal; each dharma effects itself and each of the seven others. This seems to tow the dependent origination line while not denying the existence of dhammas nor kalapas and avoids the question of the ultimate origin of the elements: they self originate, yet are dependent on each other and so are dependently originated.

Is this the Theravada understanding as well?

char101
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by char101 »

Perezoso wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:43 am
What causes a kalapa or dhamma to arise and cease?
Kalapa is not the same as dhamma. Dhamma is everything. Dhamma is either conditioned or unconditioned. Uncoditioned dhamma is Nibanna. Conditioned dhamma are citta, cetasika, and rupa. Rupa that appear together are called kalapa.
§ 6. On the Origins of Material Phenomena.
The four things said to be the origins of material phenomena are:
1. karma;
2. mind;
3. physical change;
4. food.

(Abhidhammatasangaha VI.6)
Are they dependent on themselves since they arise in a group?
No, they depend on one of the four conditions mentioned above.
Where is this explained?
The abhidhammatasangaha.
The Abhidharmahrdaya (Taisho 1550, 811b20ff) states that the operation is reflexive and reciprocal; each dharma effects itself and each of the seven others. This seems to tow the dependent origination line while not denying the existence of dhammas nor kalapas and avoids the question of the ultimate origin of the elements: they self originate, yet are dependent on each other and so are dependently originated.
Self dependence means that it is self sustaining which contradicts the doctrine of impermanence.

Perezoso
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Perezoso »

char101 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:38 am
Perezoso wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:43 am
What causes a kalapa or dhamma to arise and cease?
Kalapa is not the same as dhamma. Dhamma is everything. Dhamma is either conditioned or unconditioned. Uncoditioned dhamma is Nibanna. Conditioned dhamma are citta, cetasika, and rupa. Rupa that appear together are called kalapa.
§ 6. On the Origins of Material Phenomena.
The four things said to be the origins of material phenomena are:
1. karma;
2. mind;
3. physical change;
4. food.

(Abhidhammatasangaha VI.6)
Are they dependent on themselves since they arise in a group?
No, they depend on one of the four conditions mentioned above.
Where is this explained?
The abhidhammatasangaha.
The Abhidharmahrdaya (Taisho 1550, 811b20ff) states that the operation is reflexive and reciprocal; each dharma effects itself and each of the seven others. This seems to tow the dependent origination line while not denying the existence of dhammas nor kalapas and avoids the question of the ultimate origin of the elements: they self originate, yet are dependent on each other and so are dependently originated.
Self dependence means that it is self sustaining which contradicts the doctrine of impermanence.
Thanks.
Material phenomena originating from temperature
...Externally temperature or the fire element also produces inorganic material phenomena, such as climatic and geological transformations.
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Bhikkhu Bodhi, IV guide to 12
Tejo is the element of heat. Cold is also a form of tejo.
Both heat and cold are included in tejo because they possess the power of maturing bodies. Tejo, in other words, is
the vitalizing energy. Preservation and decay are also due
to this element. Unlike the other three essentials of matter,
this element has the power to regenerate matter by itself.
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Narada Thera page 319
So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Ceisiwr »

So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
You seem to be turning paṭiccasamuppāda into a scientific theory instead of a descriptor of experience.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

Perezoso
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Perezoso »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:54 pm
So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
You seem to be turning paṭiccasamuppāda into a scientific theory instead of a descriptor of experience.
Sorry, but Abhidhamma states that matter exists, land is not the result of kamma and tejo can generate matter on it's own. Matter is an ultimate reality (paramattha dhamma) in Theravada Buddhism. Temporary and dependently originated, but existing and ultimate reality.

It may sound scientific, but I'm literally quoting othodox Theravada Abhidhamma commentary teachings. These aren't my opinions but rather are the orthodox positions and teachings of the Theravada.

As I am above quoting the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, which is considered as authoritative in this forum and per the guidelines is not to be challenged here, the quotes automatically supercede whatever views you've come to assail me with and so your points are therefore irrelevant, unless you've come to provide support and views in sync with the orthodox Theravada view.

To be fair, my views are irrelevant here too! Orthodox Theravada quotes supercede everyone's personal views in this subforum.

Don't take it from me, though, read the above quotes, read the whole Abhidhammattha Sangaha.

Here's another good and relevant quote from an absolute expert in orthodox Theravada:
...in order for there to be seeing there must be eye sensitivity, and there must be visible forms that really exist, are realities that genuinely exist, are personally experienced, and are ultimate reality.
-Mahasi Sayadaw, Manual of Insight, page 98

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:42 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:54 pm
So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
You seem to be turning paṭiccasamuppāda into a scientific theory instead of a descriptor of experience.
Sorry, but Abhidhamma states that matter exists, land is not the result of kamma and tejo can generate matter on it's own. Matter is an ultimate reality (paramattha dhamma) in Theravada Buddhism. Temporary and dependently originated, but existing and ultimate reality.

It may sound scientific, but I'm literally quoting othodox Theravada Abhidhamma commentary teachings. These aren't my opinions but rather are the orthodox positions and teachings of the Theravada.

As I am above quoting the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, which is considered as authoritative in this forum and per the guidelines is not to be challenged here, the quotes automatically supercede whatever views you've come to assail me with and so your points are therefore irrelevant, unless you've come to provide support and views in sync with the orthodox Theravada view.

To be fair, my views are irrelevant here too! Orthodox Theravada quotes supercede everyone's personal views in this subforum.

Don't take it from me, though, read the above quotes, read the whole Abhidhammattha Sangaha.

Here's another good and relevant quote from an absolute expert in orthodox Theravada:
...in order for there to be seeing there must be eye sensitivity, and there must be visible forms that really exist, are realities that genuinely exist, are personally experienced, and are ultimate reality.
-Mahasi Sayadaw, Manual of Insight, page 98


My bad. I just realised what sub-forum this is.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

char101
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by char101 »

Perezoso wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:24 pm
So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
Yes, that is utu (season/climate). Temperature or heat element is tejo. Maybe taken literally, there are material that are created when the season changes, for example snow. There are material which existence depends on sufficient temperature. Note that material does not necessarily depends on only a single condition, so temperature might be a necessary but not sufficient condition.
3. Material Phenomena born of Physical Change.

The temperature of heat and cold, named the element
of heat,' when it reaches its static stage, gives rise to
material phenomena, 'originated by physical change,'
either internal or external according to circumstances.

Abhidhammatasangaha VI.3
It is said that 13 kinds of rupa are conditioned by temperature but not exclusively (so they may depend on more that one condition).
3. Four groups are said to be 'caused by physical
change.' These are the 'pure' octad, the sound-nonad, the
undecad of plasticity, and the dodecad of sound and plasticity.
1. earth-element (paṭhavī)
2. water-element (āpo)
3. fire-element (tejo)
4. air-element (vāyo)
5. colour (rūpa)
6. sound (sadda)
7. smell (ghandha)
8. taste (rasa)
9. nutriment (āhāra)
10. limitation (pariccheda) – not directly produced, but just the limitation or boundary of one material group
11. lightness (lahutā)
12. softness (mudutā)
13. adaptability (kammaññatā)

I guess these 13 elements could form kalapas conditioned by temperature.

Perezoso
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 pm

Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Perezoso »

char101 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:03 am
Perezoso wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:24 pm
So temperature born matter has temperature or the fire element as it's cause (I think this is "utu" the same as your translation's "physical change", and "tejodhatu" for the "fire element".)? So, rocks and weather for example can be produced dependent on temperature or fire? So a rock is dependent on temperature born matter? Or, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
Yes, that is utu (season/climate). Temperature or heat element is tejo. Maybe taken literally, there are material that are created when the season changes, for example snow. There are material which existence depends on sufficient temperature. Note that material does not necessarily depends on only a single condition, so temperature might be a necessary but not sufficient condition.
3. Material Phenomena born of Physical Change.

The temperature of heat and cold, named the element
of heat,' when it reaches its static stage, gives rise to
material phenomena, 'originated by physical change,'
either internal or external according to circumstances.

Abhidhammatasangaha VI.3
It is said that 13 kinds of rupa are conditioned by temperature but not exclusively (so they may depend on more that one condition).
3. Four groups are said to be 'caused by physical
change.' These are the 'pure' octad, the sound-nonad, the
undecad of plasticity, and the dodecad of sound and plasticity.
1. earth-element (paṭhavī)
2. water-element (āpo)
3. fire-element (tejo)
4. air-element (vāyo)
5. colour (rūpa)
6. sound (sadda)
7. smell (ghandha)
8. taste (rasa)
9. nutriment (āhāra)
10. limitation (pariccheda) – not directly produced, but just the limitation or boundary of one material group
11. lightness (lahutā)
12. softness (mudutā)
13. adaptability (kammaññatā)

I guess these 13 elements could form kalapas conditioned by temperature.
Thanks.

I did a lot of research to rule out the possibility that just these two venerables believe this and found that tejo/utu/temperature is repeatedly stated to be able to generate matter, by many scholars, and none seem inclined to clarify that it is not utu alone causing it to arise.

Per the above quotes by both Bhikkhu Bodhi and Narada Thera, and combined with the Theravada proving that land is not the result of kamma (Kv 7.7) and the following quotes by other respected scholars, might we conclude that matter can be generated by utu or tejo alone, dependent only on other uto or tejo?

It seems that eight rupas must arise together
the 8 inseparable rúpas, avinibbhoga rúpas, including the 4 principle rúpas, mahå-
bhúta rúpas, of:
solidity (Earth)
cohesion (Water)
temperature (Fire)
motion or pressure (Wind)
and the 4 derived rúpas of:
colour
odour
flavour
nutrition


--A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket
But their arising can be born from temperature alone
[The tejo] element has the power to regenerate matter by itself.
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Narada Thera page 319
Brackets mine
41. (4) What is originated by temperature that has temperature as its condition: the
temperature-originated fire element that has reached presence originates a further
octad-with-nutritive-essence-as-eighth, and the temperature in that octad
originates a further octad. Thus temperature-originated materiality both goes
on occurring for a long period and also maintains itself as well in what is not
clung to.

-Visuddhimagga XX. 41
The 3 vikara rúpas, rúpas of changeability, originate from 3 factors: some kalåpas originate from citta, some from temperature and some from nutrition. The 2 rúpas that are intimation, viññatti rúpas, originate only from citta.

...

Sound, sadda rúpa, can originate from 2 factors: some kalapas originate from citta  and some from temperature.
...

The sound nonad, which is a kalåpa of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas
and sound. If sound does not originate from citta, in the case of speech intimation,
sound originates from temperature, such as the sound of traffic, or of a waterfall.

...

Some kinds of rúpa are produced solely by kamma and in each kalåpa produced by
kamma the rúpa that is life-faculty, jívitindriya rúpa, is included. This rúpa sustains the
rúpas that it accompanies in one kalåpa, it maintains their life. Therefore, the rúpas in
the body of people and other living beings are different from the rúpas in dead matter.

-A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas
by
Sujin Boriharnwanaket

From the 4 utuja rupa kalapas, suddhattha rupa kalapa and saddanava rupa kalapa can arise outside of beings or sattas.
-Patthana Dhamma
by Htoo Naing
The fire-element can produce many generations of kalapas called temperature- produced materiality (utuja-rupa).
-Pa Auk Sayadaw
How to Make an End to Suffering

That born from temperature is temperature-born...

-Visuddhimagga, XIV. 75

char101
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by char101 »

Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:44 pm
I did a lot of research to rule out the possibility that just these two venerables believe this and found that tejo/utu/temperature is repeatedly stated to be able to generate matter, by many scholars, and none seem inclined to clarify that it is not utu alone causing it to arise.
Sorry, I was reading this document and misunderstood what it means by exclusively. So for example the primary elements can be caused by kamma, citta, utu, ahara, so it is not exclusively caused by only a single condition. I guess that means that any of kamma, citta, utu, or ahara can be a sufficient condition for the arising of rupa.

From the 4 kalapas produced by utu, it seems that utu produces physical change and sound in the body.
There are four groups produced by physical change: the two primary groups (i.e. the primary octad and the sound nonad) and the two plastic groups, i.e. the undecad of plasticity and the sound dodecad of plasticity). Now this body of ours maintains itself right on throughout the whole life, through a long course of bodily postures. Hence, at every moment, there occur in this body the harmonious and inharmonious workings of the elements, through changes in the postures; through changes in its temperature, through changes of food, air, and heat; through changes of the disposition of the members of the body; and through changes of one"s own exertion and of others. Here also, when working harmoniously, two plastic groups occur; and when working inharmoniously, the other two primary groups occur. Of the four groups, two sound-groups arise when there occur various kinds of sound other than that produced by mind.

https://mahajana.net/en/library/texts/t ... i#Material
These 13 material phenomena occur grouped in 4 types of kalāpas:
1. utuja suddhaṭṭhaka: temperature-born pure octad = pure group of 8: 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga)
2. sadda-navaka: sound nonad = group of 9 with sound: 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + sound (sadda)
3. lahutādi ekādasaka: lightness-triad undecad = group of 11 with lightness etc. 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + lightness (lahutā), softness (mudutā), adaptability (kammaññatā)
4. sadda-lahutādi-dvādasaka: sound-lightness-triad dodecad = group of 12 with sound and lightness etc.
8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + sound (sadda) + lightness (lahutā), softness (mudutā), adaptability (kammaññatā)

Perezoso
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Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by Perezoso »

char101 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:56 am
Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:44 pm
I did a lot of research to rule out the possibility that just these two venerables believe this and found that tejo/utu/temperature is repeatedly stated to be able to generate matter, by many scholars, and none seem inclined to clarify that it is not utu alone causing it to arise.
Sorry, I was reading this document and misunderstood what it means by exclusively. So for example the primary elements can be caused by kamma, citta, utu, ahara, so it is not exclusively caused by only a single condition. I guess that means that any of kamma, citta, utu, or ahara can be a sufficient condition for the arising of rupa.

From the 4 kalapas produced by utu, it seems that utu produces physical change and sound in the body.
There are four groups produced by physical change: the two primary groups (i.e. the primary octad and the sound nonad) and the two plastic groups, i.e. the undecad of plasticity and the sound dodecad of plasticity). Now this body of ours maintains itself right on throughout the whole life, through a long course of bodily postures. Hence, at every moment, there occur in this body the harmonious and inharmonious workings of the elements, through changes in the postures; through changes in its temperature, through changes of food, air, and heat; through changes of the disposition of the members of the body; and through changes of one"s own exertion and of others. Here also, when working harmoniously, two plastic groups occur; and when working inharmoniously, the other two primary groups occur. Of the four groups, two sound-groups arise when there occur various kinds of sound other than that produced by mind.
These 13 material phenomena occur grouped in 4 types of kalāpas:
1. utuja suddhaṭṭhaka: temperature-born pure octad = pure group of 8: 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga)
2. sadda-navaka: sound nonad = group of 9 with sound: 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + sound (sadda)
3. lahutādi ekādasaka: lightness-triad undecad = group of 11 with lightness etc. 8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + lightness (lahutā), softness (mudutā), adaptability (kammaññatā)
4. sadda-lahutādi-dvādasaka: sound-lightness-triad dodecad = group of 12 with sound and lightness etc.
8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga) + sound (sadda) + lightness (lahutā), softness (mudutā), adaptability (kammaññatā)
Thanks!

It seems that it can produce matter and that this can be external. Since utu can produce matter on it's own, with utu as it's dependent cause, and can arise outside of beings or satta, it seems safe to say that, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
13 material phenomena can be born of temperature (utu)

...

1. utuja suddhatthaka: temperature-born pure octad = pure group of 8
8 inseparebles (avinibbhoga)
From the 4 utuja rupa kalapas, suddhattha rupa kalapa and saddanava rupa kalapa can arise outside of beings or sattas.
-Patthana Dhamma
by Htoo Naing

char101
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:21 am

Re: Are kalapas and dhammas dependently originated?

Post by char101 »

Perezoso wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:42 am
It seems that it can produce matter and that this can be external. Since utu can produce matter on it's own, with utu as it's dependent cause, and can arise outside of beings or satta, it seems safe to say that, in ultimate terms, a conventional "rock" is nothing other than utu/tejodhatu (utu: physical change/temperature, or tejodhatu: fire element) born matter, itself dependent on utu/tejodhatu for it's arising?
I guess one idea is assuming that utu is physics/chemistry like I mentioned in another post, then the formation of a rock depends on the bond between its molecules, and when that bond break, the rock will be dissolved.

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