Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Aloka
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aloka »

Lucas Oliveira wrote:I used the CIA link to show that an important government agency studies these issues and considers it true.
They might be an "important government agency" to you, but they're of no interest whatsoever to me because I don't live in the USA. Nor are your other links of any interest, Lucas. I'm really tired of pushy people trying to brainwash me in one way or another, but thanks anyway.

All the best, be well & happy.


:anjali:

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:25 pm
Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:26 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote:Even the CIA believes in other Existence plans..
So what? Who cares what the CIA believe? I certainly don't , I've got more important things to do.


:shrug:

.
Many Buddhists and people of other religions have a hard time believing in Karma, Rebirths, Spirits, afterlife, and other planes of existence ... Because they think these themes go against what current science claims.

But there are already many scientific works that show that these themes are true.

I used the CIA link to show that an important government agency studies these issues and considers it true.

and there are many more scientific works.

Review of "Evidence of the Afterlife"
The Nine Lines of Evidence
http://neardth.com/evidence-of-the-afterlife.php
http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Lo ... 2--1-2.pdf

:namaste:



I have found that many secular Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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DooDoot
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 pm
I have found that many secular Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism.
I have found some Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because they have examined the meaning of Pali words in or language of the Pali suttas. Since the Pali suttas literally say it is extremely "rare" the Buddha's Dhamma is understood, it appears these minority Buddhists who have studied correctly & accurately are probably correct. Ajahn Buddhadasa said:
People language is used by the ordinary people who don't understand Dhamma very well and by those worldly people who are so
dense that they are blind to everything but material things. Then, there is the language which is spoken by those who understand reality (Dhamma), especially those who know and understand reality in the ultimate sense. This is another kind of language.
Also, accusing or reviling such Noble Ones as "materialists" is illogical because these Noble Ones believe "birth" ("jati") is something mental; where as the belief of the revilers & accusers is "birth" ("jati") is something "material/physical". Therefore it is the accusers & revilers who appear to hold beliefs in materialism or skepticism.

:ugeek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Aloka
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aloka »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 pm

I have found that many secular Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism.
Just out of curiosity, how many "secular buddhists" who "reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism" do you actually know personally, and talk to face to face in the world outside of your computer/laptop/ 'phone in your room ?

.
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 pm

I have found that many secular Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism.
Just out of curiosity, how many "secular buddhists" who "reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism" do you actually know personally, and talk to face to face in the world outside of your computer/laptop/ 'phone?

.


Oh they are all online folk :smile:
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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DooDoot
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DooDoot »

Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:24 pm
Just out of curiosity, how many "secular buddhists" who "reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or skepticism"...
The comment certainly appeared ridiculous. Before I discovered Buddhism, I never ever heard of doctrines of materialism or skepticism. Btw, only a sotappana has overcome skepticism. In reality, it is the materialistic revilers & accusers have skepticism that "jati" is something mental rather than material.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 pm
I have found that many secular Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or scepticism.
I have found some Buddhists reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because they have examined the meaning of Pali words in or language of the Pali suttas. Since the Pali suttas literally say it is extremely "rare" the Buddha's Dhamma is understood, it appears these minority Buddhists who have studied correctly & accurately are probably correct. Ajahn Buddhadasa said:
People language is used by the ordinary people who don't understand Dhamma very well and by those worldly people who are so
dense that they are blind to everything but material things. Then, there is the language which is spoken by those who understand reality (Dhamma), especially those who know and understand reality in the ultimate sense. This is another kind of language.
Also, accusing or reviling such Noble Ones as "materialists" is illogical because these Noble Ones believe "birth" ("jati") is something mental; where as the belief of the revilers & accusers is "birth" ("jati") is something "material/physical". Therefore it is the accusers & revilers who appear to hold beliefs in materialism or skepticism.

:ugeek:

It’s a queer sort of logic to think that an opinion being in the minority makes it more likely to be true.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:29 pm
Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:24 pm
Just out of curiosity, how many "secular buddhists" who "reject rebirth and kamma post mortem because of previously held beliefs in materialism or skepticism"...
The comment certainly appeared ridiculous. Before I discovered Buddhism, I never ever heard of doctrines of materialism or skepticism. Btw, only a sotappana has overcome skepticism. In reality, it is the materialistic revilers & accusers have skepticism that "jati" is something mental rather than material.

You clearly weren’t well read then.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Aloka
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aloka »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 pm

You clearly weren’t well read then.
Being "well read" has absolutely no significance in terms of progress on the path.

.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 pm

You clearly weren’t well read then.
Being "well read" has absolutely no significance in terms of progress on the path.

.

Correct, and this comment has no relevance to my original comment. Nick said he had never heard of these doctrines before finding Buddhism, which I believe was around his late teens. It was in relation to this that I made my comment and not in relation to practicing Buddhism.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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DooDoot
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:34 pm
It’s a queer sort of logic to think that an opinion being in the minority makes it more likely to be true.
No. I already posted the Buddha said this. :roll: Regardless, there appears little or no evidence in the suttas "jati" means "physical/material birth"; let alone a Pali word that means "material rebirth". :smile:
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world.
“pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?
Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

A Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.
Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.
Tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.
Tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

A person who practices in line with the teaching.
Tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

A person who is grateful and thankful.
Kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.195/en/sujato
:alien:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:46 pm
which I believe was around his late teens.
Materialism & skepticism are very old doctrines. You appear to be projecting your own life history on others. :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Materialism & skepticism are very old doctrines.
A sensible comment.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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cappuccino
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: because these Noble Ones believe "birth" ("jati") is something mental
are you in a physical body?

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DooDoot
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:18 pm
A sensible comment.
Yes. My comment was sensible. It is good kamma to praise my comments. :thumbsup:
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:18 pm
are you in a physical body?
what is this "you"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: what is this "you"?
you

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