Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Dhamma Spammer
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:46 pm

Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Dhamma Spammer »

An interesting fact is that the vast majority of Western Buddhists today, 99% or more, are firm believers in agnostic modern western scientific cosmology and dismiss Buddha's cosmology teaching (and that of his followers down the centuries and millennia in India, Sri Lanka, Tibet, and so on) as not true, even while, curiously, they simultaneously do believe in Buddha's teachings on morality, meditation, wisdom, philosophy, psychology, medicine, sociology, politics, and everything else that Buddha and his followers may have discoursed about. As for the Buddha's teaching of cosmology, or Abhidhamma gross elemental phenomenology, very broadly speaking, it differs from the agnostic modern western cosmology in two or three major ways:

1. In Buddhist cosmology, the shape of the surface of the ocean, lakes, rivers, ice, land, etc., covering the surface of the world is plane, level, not curving, not bending, etc., and not at all curving around the outside of a sphere or spheroid; according to this teaching, all people, animals, things, and every point on the face of the earth is on top of the earth at the same angle as each other, with every point (allowing for topography, tides, etc.) at the same level of elevation as each other, and it's not the case that all people, things, and all points on the surface of the world are all up and down and all around the sides of a sphere or spheroid, all at different angles to each other, with up to 180 degrees of angle between any two points, such that they are literally up diametrically opposing ways to each other, as they are said to be in the agnostic modern western science teaching, where the surface of the ocean, lakes, rivers, ice, earth, etc. covering over the world bend down around the outside of a sphere or spheroid at the rate of some 8 inches per mile squared.

2. Second of all, in the Buddha's teaching, our world or earth is stationary and does not move at all, whether by spinning or by flying (i.e., "orbiting"). Instead, according to Buddha and the Buddhist tradition, it is the Sun, Moon, stars, constellations, planets, etc., in the sky above us which all move by day and night, through the seasons and through the years, while our world or earth itself never moves anywhere. This is a big difference from the modern science teaching which explains that our world and us and everything on it spins around by day and night constantly some 25,000 miles a day at up to 1040 miles per hour, while our world simultaneously flies (or "orbits") around the Sun and around other parts of the cosmos and universe in up to 4 or 5 different directions all at once, at total of several million miles a day, while the Sun itself is in one sense fixed motionless in the sky (in another simultaneous context, science also says that the Sun herself also flies or "orbits" around the cosmos and universe in various directions all at once, also flying many millions of miles a day, but in terms of our alleged sun or "solar" system dynamic, the Sun is supposed to be fixed and not moving in the sky. This is the logic that that science actually employs in all textbooks, lectures, handouts, films, programs, and so on, at all universities, schools, royal societies, etc.).

So these are the two main differences between Buddhist cosmology and modern western science: the shape of the surface of the ocean, earth, etc., covering the face of the earth, and the stationary nature of our world and the moving nature of the Sun, etc.

There is no Buddhist teaching by any Buddhist teacher (outside perhaps of some rogue Western modern teachers who are not part of a proper lineage and do not know very much about Buddhism or Buddhist philosophy with its important focus on valid cognition or valid knowledge) from Buddha himself down the more than 2,500 years of tradition, which argues that the shape of the surface of the ocean, etc., covering the surface of the world, is such that it wraps around the outside of a sphere or spheroid, which everyone and everything all around the sides of the spherical/spheroidal object, bending and curving around at the rate of some 8 inches per mile squared, or which argues that our world moves in any way, whether by spinning tens of thousands of miles a day or flying (i.e., "orbiting") millions of miles a day. In fact, all 2,500 and more years of Buddhist teaching agrees that we are all on top of the surface of the world at the same angle as each other, with no amount of curving down of the surface of the ocean etc., at all, with, therefore - allowing for topography, etc. - every point on the surface of the world at the same level of elevation as each other (for example, in the Buddhist teaching, allowing for tides, etc., every point of what is called sea level is at the same level of elevation as each other, and it's not the case, as science argues, that that level of elevation descends down in all directions at the rate of 8 inches per mile squared), and that our world is in fact stationary and that it is the Sun, Moon, constellations, planets, etc. that move in the sky above the stationary world below, while our world doesn't fly/orbit or spin at all.

Since this is so, and since there are very many hundreds of authentic lineage Buddhist teachers in the world today, both Theravada and Mahayana, why do these teachers not teach people about Buddhist cosmology? It is not because people like the Theravada teachers or the Mahayana ones like Dalai Lama and hundreds of other genuine lineage Buddhist masters actually believe in agnostic modern western scientific teachings about us all being on the various sides of a spheroid that flies or "orbits" and spins millions of miles a day at hundreds of times faster than the human eye can discern as even a blur while the Sun herself is mainly fixed unmoving in the sky in the middle of a sun or "solar" system; on the contrary, Buddhist masters such as the Dalai Lama and countless other teachers and leaders like him very much believe in the Buddha's teaching that all people and things in the world are on top of the surface of the earth at the same angle as each other, and that it is the Sun and so forth that moves in the sky above us, while we don't spin or fly/"orbit" at all. However, the Dalai Lama and other people like him are unfortunately not in the position to point out these things because it would be quite damaging for Buddhism in the world. If the Dalai Lama and other leaders like him were to point out that Buddha's and the Buddhist teaching is that we are all on top of a stationary world at the same angle as each other and that the Sun moves above the stationary us below, in contradiction to the modern secular doctrines of a spinning and flying/"orbiting" sphere or spheroid-shaped world and a sun or "solar" system, then everyone in the world, even including a good 99% of Western Buddhists, would say that the Dalai Lama finally went bananas and that this was not, truth to tell, entirely to be unexpected, really, since Buddhism, they would agree, even the 99% of Western (secular) Buddhists, is after all nothing but an ancient superstition filled with long-outdated teachings about compassion, nonviolence, altruism, love, wisdom, peacefulness and perfect enlightenment that are inconsistent with and obviously have no place in the correct modern secular agnostic understanding about everything, including cosmology. They would say that the Dalai Lama and so on were mere uneducated intellectual barbarians whose beliefs and practices have no place in the modern world, since they hold such unscientific and savage beliefs such as that we are all on top of the earth at the same angle as each other, and such as that it is the Sun that moves in the sky above the stationary us below, and that we do not fly or "orbit" or spin around the Sun and around the universe at all, let alone millions of miles a day in various directions all at once at hundreds or thousands of times faster than the eye can discern as even a blur, as we obviously and definitely do (since science textbooks and science spokespeople say so).

Thus, Buddhist leaders such as the Dalai Lama unfortunately cannot point out these important things and they simply have to not talk about them. Unfortunately, this leads many people including 99% of secular Buddhists and 100% of everyone else to assume that Buddhism agrees with modern agnostic science when it comes to cosmology, but actually nothing could be further from the truth.

This is slightly different to the case with Christianity, albeit that in the Christian Biblical tradition, it is quite similar to Buddhism. In the Biblical cosmology, the shape of the surface of the ocean, land, rivers, lakes, etc., is the same as it is in Buddhism (and in the Hindu Veda, and Jainism, Taoism, etc.) - namely, the shape of the surface of the ocean, ice, earth, rivers, lakes, etc, covering the surface of the world is plane and level, with every point at the same level of elevation as each other (allowing for topography of course), and it is not that the surface of the world is wrapped around the outside of a sphere or spheroid with a bending or curving down rate of incidence in every direction of some 8 inches per mile squared. Again, just like in Buddhism and all original Asian traditions, in the Biblical and Christian tradition, our world is stationary and does not spin or fly ("orbit") at all and instead it is actually the Sun, Moon, planets, constellations, and so on, that all move in the sky above us by day and night (sun and moon), by month (moon) and by years (planets and constellations). The difference between Christianity and Buddhism is that today, in fact, most Christian leaders actually do literally believe in the modern secular teachings on cosmology and do not actually believe in the explanations found in the Bible and in the writings of the various saints and scribes of their tradition. There are a few Christian teachers who do teach Biblical cosmology regarding the plane, level and consistently-elevated shape of the surface of the ocean, lakes, rivers, ice, land, etc., and the stationary nature of our world and the moving nature of the Sun, etc., but they are invariably belittled, rejected and ridiculed by the rest of the mainstream Christian establishment in the world as superstitious intellectually illiterate barbarians and uneducated savages who have no place in the modern scientific rational world. Indeed, it was the Vatican itself in the 1600s or so who officially ratified the spinning and flying ("orbiting") sphere or spheroid or "globe" world and non-moving Sun or heliocentrism theories, thus officially rejecting their own traditional scriptural teaching of cosmology. Buddhism has never done this - no authentic Buddhist church or proper lineage leader has ever officially aligned itself with modern scientific cosmology. But because the Buddhist leadership in the world does not speak up and actively teach Buddhist cosmology, since it is unfortunately not in the position of being able to do so, a large number of people - including 99% of secular Buddhists and 100% of everyone else - conclude and assume that Buddhism agrees with science, and that Buddha's and the 2,500 year and more Buddhist tradition's teachings on cosmology were either ignorant mistakes, the anachronistic superstitions of barbarians and savages, or idle myth-making or whatever.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

Buddha could perceive heaven and hell


although not a vantage point from orbit


this is the paradox

SarathW
Posts: 13900
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by SarathW »

Many Buddhist will not be able to understand these plane of existence as a reality.
However, you can experience higher states by practicing meditation.
You can witness the animal realm.
The only thing humans can't experience is the lowest of woeful state until his/her physical death.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 1185
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Should Buddhist cosmology be taught today? No, because it has been shown to be false. A kid with a $50 telescope can disprove some of it.

Change your beliefs to fit observations.

It's so hard for some people to accept that some of the teachings may be wrong. Why?

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Change your beliefs to fit observations.
sure, look for heaven with your divine eye

SarathW
Posts: 13900
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by SarathW »

A kid with a $50 telescope can disprove some of it.
Not really.
Buddist cosmology is not about this physical world or the universe.
Perhaps it is about a parallel universe that we can't comprehend with apparatus.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

perhaps heaven is a place on earth

perhaps heaven is Saturn, Jupiter, etc

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by robertk »

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:31 pm
perhaps heaven is a place on earth

Like Holland? viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36101&p=540158#p540179

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6678
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aloka »

Dhamma Spammer"" wrote:An interesting fact is that the vast majority of Western Buddhists today, 99% or more, are firm believers in agnostic modern western scientific cosmology and dismiss Buddha's cosmology teaching (and that of his followers down the centuries and millennia in India, Sri Lanka, Tibet, and so on) as not true,
That's quite a sweeping statement, do you have any actual evidence for this "fact" of "99% or more"?
Dhamma Spammer wrote:a large number of people - including 99% of secular Buddhists and 100% of everyone else - conclude and assume that Buddhism agrees with science, and that Buddha's and the 2,500 year and more Buddhist tradition's teachings on cosmology were either ignorant mistakes, the anachronistic superstitions of barbarians and savages, or idle myth-making or whatever.
Can you provide any examples to support this, or is it just speculation again?

This talk from Ajahn Amaro might be of interest:

Gods, demons and kind spirits’ meaningful myth and Buddhist Cosmology

https://www.amaravati.org/audio/gods-de ... cosmology/


Have a good day. :hello:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7822
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhamma Spammer wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:53 pm
An interesting fact is that the vast majority of Western Buddhists today, 99% or more, are firm believers in agnostic modern western scientific cosmology and dismiss Buddha's cosmology teaching (and that of his followers down the centuries and millennia in India, Sri Lanka, Tibet, and so on) as not true
I doubt the above is a fact. In fact, I would say it is the opposite. Western Buddhists appear to love reincarnation.
Dhamma Spammer wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:53 pm
even while, curiously, they simultaneously do believe in Buddha's teachings on morality, meditation, wisdom, philosophy, psychology, medicine, sociology, politics, and everything else that Buddha and his followers may have discoursed about.
Again, I doubt the above is a fact, particularly about morality. My impression is many Western Buddhists are similar to Protestant Christians, believing in guaranteed good reincarnation regardless of morality.

As for the rest of your lengthy blog about the physical universe, i ignored it because it appears to be called "animal talk" in Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

What is the vision of the science of the Cosmos?
Dark matter is a form of matter thought to account for approximately 85% of the matter in the universe and about a quarter of its total energy density. Its presence is implied in a variety of astrophysical observations, including gravitational effects that cannot be explained by accepted theories of gravity unless more matter is present than can be seen. For this reason, most experts think that dark matter is abundant in the universe and that it has had a strong influence on its structure and evolution. Dark matter is called dark because it does not appear to interact with observable electromagnetic radiation, such as light, and so it is undetectable by existing astronomical instruments.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
What Is Dark Energy?
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the universe.
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/f ... ark-energy
Even the CIA believes in other Existence plans..

For the CIA Astral Plane exists and is potential Parapolitic weapon (Portuguese)
http://cinegnose.blogspot.com/2017/10/p ... e-e-e.html

:spy:

:namaste:
Last edited by Lucas Oliveira on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

According to Carl Sagan:

“ "The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang."[35]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
Multi-verse theory?

Multiverse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

Image

Multiverse in Hinduism

Image

Shiva’s Cosmic Dance at CERN

On June 18, 2004, an unusual new landmark was unveiled at CERN, the European Center for Research in Particle Physics in Geneva — a 2m tall statue of the Indian deity Shiva Nataraja, the Lord of Dance. The statue, symbolizing Shiva’s cosmic dance of creation and destruction, was given to CERN by the Indian government to celebrate the research center’s long association with India.

https://www.fritjofcapra.net/shivas-cos ... e-at-cern/

Image

:namaste:
Last edited by Lucas Oliveira on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4154
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cappuccino »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang.
this is why heaven is the aim
of religion in general

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 6678
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Aloka »

DooDoot wrote: I doubt the above is a fact. In fact, I would say it is the opposite. Western Buddhists appear to love reincarnation.
Very true in my experience with a lot of the buddhists I've encountered both on the internet and off the internet at Buddhist centres. Some of them are completely obsessed with it!
Lucas Oliveira wrote:Even the CIA believes in other Existence plans..
So what? Who cares what the CIA believe? I certainly don't , I've got more important things to do.


:shrug:

.

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Should Buddhists teach Abhidhamma cosmology at the present time? Do Buddhists believe in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Aloka wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:26 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote:Even the CIA believes in other Existence plans..
So what? Who cares what the CIA believe? I certainly don't , I've got more important things to do.


:shrug:

.
Many Buddhists and people of other religions have a hard time believing in Karma, Rebirths, Spirits, afterlife, and other planes of existence ... Because they think these themes go against what current science claims.

But there are already many scientific works that show that these themes are true.

I used the CIA link to show that an important government agency studies these issues and considers it true.

and there are many more scientific works.

Review of "Evidence of the Afterlife"
The Nine Lines of Evidence
http://neardth.com/evidence-of-the-afterlife.php
http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Lo ... 2--1-2.pdf

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

Post Reply