Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

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zan
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Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by zan »

The Abhidhamma ... says that nibbāna is extraneous to the body.
-The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name," in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sence of causing to bend (namana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")

note 5... There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in english: the word nama, "name" or "mind," is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Acariya Anuruddha, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Where is this info in the Abhidhamma?

Also, does it specify anywhere that nibbana is not consciousness? Or is it simply ruled out in other ways? If so, how?

What about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, or any other orthodox commentarial works?
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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cappuccino
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Re: Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by cappuccino »

Asankhata - Nibbāna is the only Dhamma which is not conditioned by any cause. Hence it is eternal and is neither a cause nor an effect.
A Manual of Abhidhamma
by Nārada Thera

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DooDoot
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Re: Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm
The Abhidhamma ... says that nibbāna is extraneous to the body.
-The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Obviously, nibbāna is extraneous to both the body and the mind.
zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name," in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sence of causing to bend (namana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")

note 5... There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in english: the word nama, "name" or "mind," is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Acariya Anuruddha, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Where is this info in the Abhidhamma?

Also, does it specify anywhere that nibbana is not consciousness? Or is it simply ruled out in other ways? If so, how?

What about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, or any other orthodox commentarial works?
The text highlighted in red appears to be the view of Bhikkhu Bodhi or of another commentary rather than the literal view of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha.

Page 260 makes it clear Nibbana, according to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, is unconditioned.
Padamaccutamaccantam asankhatamanuttaram
Nibbanam iti bhasanti vanamutta mahesayo.

Great seers who are free from craving declare that Nibbana is an objective state which is deathless, absolutely endless, non-conditioned, and incomparable.
Again, page 290 makes it clear Nibbana, according to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, is not an aggregate:
Bhedabhavena nibbanam khandhasangaha-nissatam.

As Nibbana lacks differentiation (such as past, present, future) it is excluded from the category of Aggregates.
It follows I imagine the contextual use of Nibbana below and even the entire translation should be examined. :reading:
Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho ca cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati.

Therein the material states are just the aggregates of matter. Consciousness and mental states, which comprise the four immaterial aggregates, and Nibbana, are the five kinds that are immaterial. They are also called 'name' (nama).

Page 325
A possible starting point of inquiry is page 292, which says below.
Yesam, sankhatadhammanam ye dhamma paccaya yatha
Tam vibhagam ih'edani pavakkhami yatharaham.

I shall now explain here, in a fitting manner, the detailed analysis of the conditioned states and of those states which are their conditions and of how they are related

Paticcasamuppadanayo, Patthananayo c'ati paccayasangaho duvidho veditabbo.
Tattha tabbhavabhavibhavakaramattopalakkhito paticcasamuppadanayo.

§ 2. The compendium of relations is twofold:

A. The Law of Dependent Arising (2), and
B. The Law of Causal Relations (3).
Bhikkhu Bodhi says "ye dhamma paccaya" includes Nibbana; it seems because Nibbana can be an object that conditions the mind. For example, (my commentary) when the mind experiences Nibbana, the mind itself drops many tendencies & views, merely due to experiencing Nibbana itself.

Thus we can now return to your original quote:
Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")
"Nama" above can be translated "inclines" [per "namati" found in MN 19].

Thus returning again to your original quote:
Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho ca cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati.
The translation of the above correctly says at 1, 2 & 3:

1. Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho - material things are just the aggregates of matter. :thumbsup:

2. Cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha - Conditioned mind and mental factors are the four immaterial aggregates :thumbsup:

3.nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham - Nibbana makes it fivefold immateriality :thumbsup: (Nibbana is immaterial but is not an aggregate)

But the translation also has: :?:

4. pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati - these arupa (things) are also called 'nama' :shrug:

It is the last Pali sentence I find strange and I find it difficult to follow Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation of:
Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")
BB previously correctly said, per MN 19:
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name," in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. :thumbsup:
But then BB is saying Nibbana (the object :!: ) is also called "nama" because it causes supramundane cittas to bend/incline/conform/submit to it (Nibbana).

Personally, I cannot agree with the above. Possibly there is a mistranslation of the Pali. :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Srilankaputra
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Re: Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by Srilankaputra »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am
:goodpost:


DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am
But then BB is saying Nibbana (the object :!: ) is also called "nama" because it causes supramundane cittas to bend/incline/conform/submit to it (Nibbana).

Personally, I cannot agree with the above. Possibly there is a mistranslation of the Pali. :shrug:
I think you provided the answer yourself.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am
(my commentary) when the mind experiences Nibbana, the mind itself drops many tendencies & views, merely due to experiencing Nibbana itself.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by DooDoot »

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:14 am
I think you provided the answer yourself.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am
(my commentary) when the mind experiences Nibbana, the mind itself drops many tendencies & views, merely due to experiencing Nibbana itself.
Yes but, above, it is the mind that bends to Nibbana. It is not Nibbana that bends; just as it is not a motor car that bends but it is the mind that bends to the object of a motor car. In the picture below, it is the mind of Obama bending rather than the buttocks of the lady bending. The lady is walking upright but Obama is bending.
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

zan
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Re: Where in the Abhidhamma is nibbana stated to be extraneous and it's type of nama delineated?

Post by zan »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:36 am
zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm
The Abhidhamma ... says that nibbāna is extraneous to the body.
-The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Obviously, nibbāna is extraneous to both the body and the mind.
zan wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name," in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sence of causing to bend (namana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")

note 5... There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in english: the word nama, "name" or "mind," is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Acariya Anuruddha, translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Where is this info in the Abhidhamma?

Also, does it specify anywhere that nibbana is not consciousness? Or is it simply ruled out in other ways? If so, how?

What about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, or any other orthodox commentarial works?
The text highlighted in red appears to be the view of Bhikkhu Bodhi or of another commentary rather than the literal view of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha.

Page 260 makes it clear Nibbana, according to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, is unconditioned.
Padamaccutamaccantam asankhatamanuttaram
Nibbanam iti bhasanti vanamutta mahesayo.

Great seers who are free from craving declare that Nibbana is an objective state which is deathless, absolutely endless, non-conditioned, and incomparable.
Again, page 290 makes it clear Nibbana, according to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, is not an aggregate:
Bhedabhavena nibbanam khandhasangaha-nissatam.

As Nibbana lacks differentiation (such as past, present, future) it is excluded from the category of Aggregates.
It follows I imagine the contextual use of Nibbana below and even the entire translation should be examined. :reading:
Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho ca cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati.

Therein the material states are just the aggregates of matter. Consciousness and mental states, which comprise the four immaterial aggregates, and Nibbana, are the five kinds that are immaterial. They are also called 'name' (nama).

Page 325
A possible starting point of inquiry is page 292, which says below.
Yesam, sankhatadhammanam ye dhamma paccaya yatha
Tam vibhagam ih'edani pavakkhami yatharaham.

I shall now explain here, in a fitting manner, the detailed analysis of the conditioned states and of those states which are their conditions and of how they are related

Paticcasamuppadanayo, Patthananayo c'ati paccayasangaho duvidho veditabbo.
Tattha tabbhavabhavibhavakaramattopalakkhito paticcasamuppadanayo.

§ 2. The compendium of relations is twofold:

A. The Law of Dependent Arising (2), and
B. The Law of Causal Relations (3).
Bhikkhu Bodhi says "ye dhamma paccaya" includes Nibbana; it seems because Nibbana can be an object that conditions the mind. For example, (my commentary) when the mind experiences Nibbana, the mind itself drops many tendencies & views, merely due to experiencing Nibbana itself.

Thus we can now return to your original quote:
Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")
"Nama" above can be translated "inclines" [per "namati" found in MN 19].

Thus returning again to your original quote:
Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho ca cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati.
The translation of the above correctly says at 1, 2 & 3:

1. Tattha rupadhamma rupakkhandho - material things are just the aggregates of matter. :thumbsup:

2. Cittacetasikasankhata cattaro arupino khandha - Conditioned mind and mental factors are the four immaterial aggregates :thumbsup:

3.nibbanañc' ati pañcavidham - Nibbana makes it fivefold immateriality :thumbsup: (Nibbana is immaterial but is not an aggregate)

But the translation also has: :?:

4. pi arupanti ca naman' ti ca pavuccati - these arupa (things) are also called 'nama' :shrug:

It is the last Pali sentence I find strange and I find it difficult to follow Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation of:
Nibbana is called nama solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition. (page 325, the second "(namana)" has a line over the first "a")
BB previously correctly said, per MN 19:
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name," in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. :thumbsup:
But then BB is saying Nibbana (the object :!: ) is also called "nama" because it causes supramundane cittas to bend/incline/conform/submit to it (Nibbana).

Personally, I cannot agree with the above. Possibly there is a mistranslation of the Pali. :shrug:
Thanks. Very illuminating.

As to your last point, Bodhi said it is a play on words which sufficiently explains it as far as I can see. But I'm not as well read as you, so I can't say for sure.
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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