Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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thang
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Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by thang » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:07 am

According to the Paticcasamuppada (SN.12.2 Vibhanga Sutta):
"Sankhara paccaya Vinnanam. Vinnana paccaya Namarupam."
Here Nama is described as ''vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara'.
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

Srilankaputra
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:24 am

Sankhara is the accumulation of kamma through body speech and mind. Analogy would be, keep adding oil to the lamp so it never goes out.

From the vibhanga;
1.2. Definition of (Volitional) Processes

Herein, what is ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes?’

(There is) a meritorious (volitional) process, a demeritorious (volitional) process, an impertubable (volitional) process, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

Herein, what is a meritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, in the form-world sphere, consisting of generosity, consisting of morality, consisting of meditation, this is said to be a meritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a demeritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) unwholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, this is said to be a demeritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is an impertubable (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the formless-world sphere, this is said to be an impertubable (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?

(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
thang wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:07 am
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?
Same way the past flame of a lamp conditioned the present flame and the present flame conditions the future flame.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

SarathW
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by SarathW » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:11 am

Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ?
You have to learn Abhidhamma to properly understand this.
Cetana is a type of Sankhara.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Volo
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by Volo » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:59 am

thang wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:07 am
According to the Paticcasamuppada (SN.12.2 Vibhanga Sutta):
"Sankhara paccaya Vinnanam. Vinnana paccaya Namarupam."
Here Nama is described as ''vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara'.
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ? If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?
According to Abhidhamma this is divided between two lifes. In previous life a person due to ignorance has wholesome and unwholesome cetana (sankhara link), i.e. accumulates kamma. This would cause rebirth linking consciousness (viññana link) and the rest of new nāma-rūpa to appear. So, basically cetana from sankhara link is from the previous life, cetana from nāma-rūpa link is from this.

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:34 am

thang wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:07 am
Is this Cetana same as Sankhara ?
No. Why would it be the same? Obviously, they are different.
thang wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:07 am
If so how can Sankhara paccaya Vinnana while vice-versa Vinnana paccaya 'a thing including Sankhara' happen?
It can happen. For example, if the ignorant thought (sankhara) arises to get angry at someone; the intention (cetana) can arise to follow the impulse of that angry sankhara. Or, alternately, the intention (cetana) can arise to abandon that angry sankhara. I suggest to read MN 19 until you understand MN 19 from experience.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:24 am
From the vibhanga
The word "sankhara" in Abhidhamma is singular and the word "sankhara" in SN 12.2 is plural. Therefore, it seems Abhidhamma cannot be used to explain SN 12.2.
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sentinel
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:21 pm

Hello Thang ,



If you follows per the definition of this sutta ,
You are going nowhere , I hope you don't mind .


Nama = vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara.
Rupa = 4 great elements

Therefore , namarupa = vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements .


Please take a closer look ,

(1). Consciousness conditions namarupa ,
You have to ask ,
what type of consciousness here refer to ?

(2). Namarupa conditions consciousness ,
again you have to ask ,
consciousness here refer to what ?


If consciousness at (1) is the 6 classes of consciousness , how can it
conditions the (vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements) ?
This does not make sense !

If consciousness at (2) is 6 classes of consciousness , how then , the namarupa ie
(vedana, sanna, cetana, phassa, manasikara + four great elements) conditions the six classes of consciousness
?
This does not make sense !

Please consider further ,
I hope you could see the error , illogical and irrational in this ?

Therefore , you cannot take this sutta definition for granted !



Ps.
Sankhara at second link (after ignorance) , is different from the cetana of mental object .
If you take sankhara at 2nd link as (e.g. angry) thought , then you could not solved the dependent origination puzzles .

The dependent origination links is sort of abbreviated codes , therefore , one should look at it as similar to a kind of short hand writing .
:buddha1:

thang
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Re: Is Cetana in Nama equals to Sankhara ?

Post by thang » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:26 am

Thank you all for your time. I'll try to understand.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

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