POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Which model best represents how one dhamma relates to the followng dhamma in Abhidhamma?

MODEL 1: Rising, falling, without overlap
2
13%
MODEL 2: Rising, falling, with overlap
0
No votes
MODEL 3: Rising, existing, falling, without overlap
6
40%
MODEL 4: Rising, existing, falling, with overlap
2
13%
Something substantially different to all four (please explain in comments)
5
33%
 
Total votes: 15

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retrofuturist
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POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:04 am

Greetings,

I have attached a diagram to show four possible models for highlighting how one dhamma may be related to the next in the Abhidhammic Dhamma model.
Dhamma Models.png
I am curious to know which one you consider most representative of the Theravada presentation of how one dhamma relates to the next.

Commentary on why you chose the poll option you selected is encouraged.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am

Are you think about whole Dhamma?
Can we just take only one? For instance the thought moments.
The dhammas are dependently originated. So how can I incorporate that?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:38 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
Are you think about whole Dhamma?
I'm not sure what you mean.
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
Can we just take only one? For instance the thought moments.
Again, not entirely sure what you're asking here...
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
The dhammas are dependently originated. So how can I incorporate that?
I don't think any of the above models pictured above preclude that possibility.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:39 am

Hi retro,

Are you talking about DO or sequence of cittas ?
Last edited by Srilankaputra on Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:40 am

Greetings,
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:39 am
Are talking about DO or sequence of cittas ?
However you think "dhammas" are understood, according to Theravada's Abhidhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:38 am
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
Are you think about whole Dhamma?
I'm not sure what you mean.
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
Can we just take only one? For instance the thought moments.
Again, not entirely sure what you're asking here...
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 am
The dhammas are dependently originated. So how can I incorporate that?
I don't think any of the above models pictured above preclude that possibility.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ok.
Can you give some example of Dhamma?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:11 am

Greetings Sarath,

Lower case d dhamma.... not the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am


They know perceptions as they arise, as they remain, and as they go away.

viditā saññā … pe … viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.

This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness.

Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṃvattati.


And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattati?

It’s when a mendicant meditates observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati:

Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.

iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;


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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by Calmoid » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:48 am

:hello: From my direct experience it is neither of your proposed models but:
Rising, persisting while changing, falling, gap or pause, next one rising, persisting.... Etc..

In the scriptures I came across multiple variants (same process but sometimes briefly or more in detail stated) dependingoon the situation, aim, purpose or who talks to whom.

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:32 am

In chronological order:

1. Yamaka: rising and falling, with no stipulation about the presence or absence of an overlap.

2. Buddhaghosa’s writings: model 3.

3. Ānanda in his Mūlaṭīkā to the Dhammasaṅgaṇī appeals to the Yamaka to dissent from Buddhaghosa’s view and argue for Model 1.

4. Various writers defend Buddhaghosa’s view and propose a different way of reading the Yamaka than that of Ānanda. By the time of Anuruddha (12-13th century) Model 3 has become the unchallenged orthodoxy in the Theravādin mainstream and seems to have remained so ever since.
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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:03 am

Greetings bhante,

Wonderful explanation, thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by Volo » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:42 am

I'm not very familiar with the chronological development, but from what I learned in Abhidhammattha sanghaha: if we are talking about materiality (rūpa), then it exists 17 mind moments, which means at every given mind moment there is also rūpa from the previous 16 moments, and neither of the diagrams fits.

If we are talking about mind (nāma), then it is similar to 3. But anyway all this "quantum mechanics" is far beyond my ability to verify it in practice. Although I've heard people with strong jhāna can see it this way.

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:19 am

I voted #1 based on the fact that dhamma is Akalika.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:35 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:19 am
I voted #1 based on the fact that dhamma is Akalika.
If it just rose & fell, how could the mind focus on anything, such as read a computer screen, and have sense contact, even for one second?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: POLL: From one dhamma to the next

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:04 pm

Are dhamma include Nibbana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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