homosexuality

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gingercatni
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homosexuality

Post by gingercatni » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Hi

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place. I have been working my way through the Digha Nikaya and have come across something that has got me rather upset. As a gay man, I came to Buddhism for it's welcoming friendly, humanistic approach, imagine my dismay reading the cakkavatti sutta only to read homosexuality condemned. In the translation I'm reading its referred to homosxuality in other translations it's sexual deviant. Very sad. :weep:

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DNS
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Re: homosexuality

Post by DNS » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:16 pm

Can you provide the quote and link to the translation you were reading?

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Re: homosexuality

Post by DNS » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm

I think Theravada is one of the most accepting / tolerant Buddhist schools toward homosexuality. For example, in some Mahayana schools or sutras, certain sex acts are prohibited, which effectively prohibit homosexuality.

cookiemonster
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Re: homosexuality

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:39 pm

gingercatni wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:19 pm
Hi

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place. I have been working my way through the Digha Nikaya and have come across something that has got me rather upset. As a gay man, I came to Buddhism for it's welcoming friendly, humanistic approach, imagine my dismay reading the cakkavatti sutta only to read homosexuality condemned. In the translation I'm reading its referred to homosxuality in other translations it's sexual deviant. Very sad. :weep:
All activity in samsara can be understood as unskillful, relatively speaking. In many respects, even heterosexuality can be considered unskillful behavior, as it also involves craving and is a hindrance to higher states, much less nibbana.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: homosexuality

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:29 am

There is no reference to homosexuality in that sutta.
Rhys David translates the part you are offended by as
three things grew apace: incest, wanton greed, and perverted lust."
And Sujato translates it as
three things became widespread: illicit desire, immoral greed, and wrong thoughts
.

Homosexuality is not perverted, or wrong thought. It occurs in many animal species. So whatever the Buddha was talking about, it wasn't homosexuality.
Maybe it was Scat, or Water-play, or snuff porn or something. :toast:
Last edited by JamesTheGiant on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: homosexuality

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:38 am

lust is misguided

leads to suffering
“Life is anxiety”

TRobinson465
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Re: homosexuality

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:21 am

I think James answered your question. just a mistranslation. homosexuality is no less moral than heterosexuality.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: homosexuality

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:19 am

gingercatni wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:19 pm
In the translation I'm reading its referred to homosxuality in other translations it's sexual deviant.
Hi GC. It appears this matter cannot even be regarded as a "mistranslation" because "homosexuality" is completely unrelated to the very broad Pali word found in this sutta. I have thoroughly discussed this sutta matter before; somewhere. The "homosexuality" inference is certainly a baseless interpretation held by certain sects. Its actually from what are called the "Commentaries". You can search the following link. Regards :)
The Commentary here explains
“abnormal lust” as incest, “excessive greed” or “neurotic desire,” as unbridled materialism and
consumerism, and “deviant conduct” as homosexuality (DA 3:853). [5.1; §17.5 n]

According to the Dīgha Commentary, here “abnormal lust” (adhamma,raga) refers to incest, that is, “lust between mother and mother’s sister and father’s sister and maternal uncle’s wife and other such improper situations” (mata matuccha pituccha matulanī ti adike ayutta-t,thane rago); “neurotic desire” (visama,lobha) refers to excessive greed by way of consuming things (paribhoga,yuttesu pi thanesu atibalava,lobho, in other words, excessive materialism and consumerism); and “deviant practices” (miccha,dhamma) refer to sexuality “between men and men, women with women.” (DA 3:853)

http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... 6-piya.pdf

gingercatni
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Re: homosexuality

Post by gingercatni » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:28 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:19 am
gingercatni wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:19 pm
In the translation I'm reading its referred to homosxuality in other translations it's sexual deviant.
Hi GC. It appears this matter cannot even be regarded as a "mistranslation" because "homosexuality" is completely unrelated to the very broad Pali word found in this sutta. I have thoroughly discussed this sutta matter before; somewhere. The "homosexuality" inference is certainly a baseless interpretation held by certain sects. Its actually from what are called the "Commentaries". You can search the following link. Regards :)
The Commentary here explains
“abnormal lust” as incest, “excessive greed” or “neurotic desire,” as unbridled materialism and
consumerism, and “deviant conduct” as homosexuality (DA 3:853). [5.1; §17.5 n]

According to the Dīgha Commentary, here “abnormal lust” (adhamma,raga) refers to incest, that is, “lust between mother and mother’s sister and father’s sister and maternal uncle’s wife and other such improper situations” (mata matuccha pituccha matulanī ti adike ayutta-t,thane rago); “neurotic desire” (visama,lobha) refers to excessive greed by way of consuming things (paribhoga,yuttesu pi thanesu atibalava,lobho, in other words, excessive materialism and consumerism); and “deviant practices” (miccha,dhamma) refer to sexuality “between men and men, women with women.” (DA 3:853)

http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... 6-piya.pdf
Thanks for the link. I'm reading a physical printed version of the Digha Nikaya so I cannot provide links to the text I refer to. The translator of the version I'm reading may hopefully rephrase this section as rereading it, it seems out of sync with the flow of the sutta. Can I also say to anyone reading this thread, if you haven't already read the Digha Nikaya, it is certainly a group of sutta's well worth reading. However, your brain will be thoroughly excercised! :namaste:

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DooDoot
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Re: homosexuality

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:47 pm

gingercatni wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:28 pm
Thanks for the link. I'm reading a physical printed version of the Digha Nikaya so I cannot provide links to the text I refer to.
The text is:
Pañcavassasatāyukesu, bhikkhave, manussesu tayo dhammā vepullamagamaṃsu—

Among the people who lived for five hundred years, three things became widespread:

adhammarāgo visamalobho micchādhammo.

illicit desire, immoral greed, and wrong thoughts.

https://suttacentral.net/dn26/en/sujato
None of the Pali words above mean or explicit refer to homosexuality. The following translation below, referring to "incest", is obviously also wrong.
Among humans of the latter span of life, brethren, three things grew apace: incest, wanton greed, and perverted lust.

https://suttacentral.net/dn26/en/tw-caf_rhysdavids
:candle:
gingercatni wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:28 pm
if you haven't already read the Digha Nikaya, it is certainly a group of sutta's well worth reading. However, your brain will be thoroughly excercised!
The Digha might be interesting but it will often bring up issues similar to the issue you have raised because many suttas in the Digha appear to have no equivalent in the rest of the suttas.

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Re: homosexuality

Post by Disciple » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:26 am

DNS wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm
I think Theravada is one of the most accepting / tolerant Buddhist schools toward homosexuality. For example, in some Mahayana schools or sutras, certain sex acts are prohibited, which effectively prohibit homosexuality.
I strongly doubt the Buddha would have approved of homosexuality unless you can point to some theravada texts that do?

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Re: homosexuality

Post by DNS » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:08 am

Disciple wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:26 am
DNS wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm
I think Theravada is one of the most accepting / tolerant Buddhist schools toward homosexuality. For example, in some Mahayana schools or sutras, certain sex acts are prohibited, which effectively prohibit homosexuality.
I strongly doubt the Buddha would have approved of homosexuality unless you can point to some theravada texts that do?
I agree; I'm just mentioning that it could be the most accepting and tolerant; not necessarily approving of it. The Buddha didn't approve of homosexuality or heterosexuality; arguably you could say he was opposed to all sexual relations, however, realizing that being a monk isn't for everyone he laid out some guidelines for lay people and gay or straight wasn't discussed (except where it is implied when referring to husband and wife). Whereas, in other religions it is explicitly stated that homosexuality is an "abomination" not acceptable, etc.

Heterosexual couples have relations based on raga-craving; same with homosexual couples. I see no reason to assume one form of raga-craving is superior or inferior to another.

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Re: homosexuality

Post by Laurens » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:58 am

gingercatni wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:19 pm
Hi

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place. I have been working my way through the Digha Nikaya and have come across something that has got me rather upset. As a gay man, I came to Buddhism for it's welcoming friendly, humanistic approach, imagine my dismay reading the cakkavatti sutta only to read homosexuality condemned. In the translation I'm reading its referred to homosxuality in other translations it's sexual deviant. Very sad. :weep:
The translations that I've found refer to 'sexual misconduct'. I'll leave it to others to describe this, but as I understand it the precept against sexual misconduct doesn't mention same sex relations.

Sometimes people try to slip homosexuality into the definition of sexual misconduct, but this is usually people trying to justify their own prejudice.

As with Jesus, I don't think the Buddha devoted much time to discussing homosexuality. For some reason, bigots looking for justification often try to make out that they did. The Buddha taught love in abundance, I don't think his teachings are homophobic.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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xofz
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Re: homosexuality

Post by xofz » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:02 am

There's nothing wrong with homosexuality. Unless one wants to have their own child--and even then, there's plenty of children up for adoption. It's no more perverted than heterosexuality. If the species were facing extinction, we might encourage heterosexuality more. But there's plenty of people. Live and let live and know that the fires of passion and lust take many forms.
becoming aware!

James Tan
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Re: homosexuality

Post by James Tan » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:45 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:08 am
Disciple wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:26 am
DNS wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm
I think Theravada is one of the most accepting / tolerant Buddhist schools toward homosexuality. For example, in some Mahayana schools or sutras, certain sex acts are prohibited, which effectively prohibit homosexuality.
I strongly doubt the Buddha would have approved of homosexuality unless you can point to some theravada texts that do?
I agree; I'm just mentioning that it could be the most accepting and tolerant; not necessarily approving of it. The Buddha didn't approve of homosexuality or heterosexuality; arguably you could say he was opposed to all sexual relations, however, realizing that being a monk isn't for everyone he laid out some guidelines for lay people and gay or straight wasn't discussed (except where it is implied when referring to husband and wife). Whereas, in other religions it is explicitly stated that homosexuality is an "abomination" not acceptable, etc.

Heterosexual couples have relations based on raga-craving; same with homosexual couples. I see no reason to assume one form of raga-craving is superior or inferior to another.
I thought Buddha approved of heterosexuality for lay people . The five precept didn't against intimacy between husband and wife .
:reading:

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