What really are the five factors of Nama ?

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thang
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What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by thang »

Some says nama is
1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
santa100
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 »

thang wrote:Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.
thang
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by thang »

santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:42 pm How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.
Yes. We have to observe the blessed one's statement.
So Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of Nama. Then what is it?
Last edited by thang on Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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santa100
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 »

thang wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pm So Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of NamaRupa. Then what is it?
It's what conditions Nama. Ven. Bodhi's note in "Connected Discourses":
It should be noted that in the Nikāyas, nāmarūpa does not include consciousness (viññāṇa). Consciousness is its condition, and the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one against the other (II 114,17–19). Consciousness can operate only in dependence on a physical body (rūpa) and in conjunction with its constellation of concomitants (nāma); conversely, only when consciousness is present can a compound of material elements function as a sentient body and the mental concomitants participate in cognition.
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

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thang wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pmSo Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of Nama. Then what is it?
Mano appears related to intention (cetana) thus appears to be part of nama. Also, mano is the mind "sense organ" for mind-contact, thus appears to be included in nama. The most famous verse where mano & intention/kamma are related is Dhp 1:
Mind (mano) precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
:candle:
thang wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm Some says nama is 1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
The above is contrary to the Buddha and contrary to the emphasis upon "attention" ("manasikara"). When dhammas are listed, the last dhamma is often the most important; with the prior dhammas being causal factors leading to the last dhamma.
thang wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pmThen what is it?
In my experience, unexpectedly, nama is best summarised as Buddhaghosa did, namely, to mean "bent" or "inclination" ("namati"). "Ignorance and sankhara" are internal and they bend the mind to incline to pursue external sense experiences via the sense bases. In other words, "ignorance and sankhara" condition the mind to have "inappropriate attention" ("ayonso manasikara").

I suggest to read MN 19, how the Buddha-To-Be prevented his mind (nama) from inclining (namati) with the power of the ignorant sankhara.
The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta... as I remained thus heedful, ardent & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.' As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.

Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination (nati) of his mind. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent (namati) by that thinking [sankhara] imbued with [ignorance asava of] sensuality. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with non-ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmfulness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmlessness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmfulness.

MN 19
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by salayatananirodha »

feeling
perception
intention
contact
attention
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Pondera
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

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santa100 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:42 pm
thang wrote:Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.
As a side note: isn’t this recipe for “form” an indication of what we have in ”rupa” jhana? (Pushing my own philosophy here :))
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW »

Does Buddha have Nama-Rupa?
Does that mean he had Vinnana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 »

Pondera wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:07 am As a side note: isn’t this recipe for “form” an indication of what we have in ”rupa” jhana? (Pushing my own philosophy here :))
I think what rupa jhana means is that one relies on a "form" object for their meditation objects, like some kasinas or the breaths or the body, etc.; as opposed to arupa jhanas which use space or nothingness as meditation objects.
SarathW wrote:Does Buddha have Nama-Rupa?
Does that mean he had Vinnana?
Before His PariNibbana? of course. All arahants while still living still have the five aggregates. It's not like after enlightenment they all turn into empty air without a body, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. They just don't cling to them with "I", "mine", or "myself" notions.
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW »

Before His PariNibbana? of course.
Then what is meant by Nirodha?
============

Reverse Order

With the complete eradication and cessation of ignorance, reaction (conditioning) ceases;
with the cessation of reaction (conditioning), consciousness ceases;
with the cessation of consciousness, mind-body cease;
with the cessation of mind-body, the six senses cease;
with the cessation of the six senses, contact ceases;
with the cessation of contact, seansation ceases;
with the cessation of sensation, craving and aversion cease;
with the cessation of craving and aversion, clinging ceases;
with the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases;
with the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases;
with the cessation of birth, ageing and death cease, together
with sorrow, lamentation, physical and mental sufferings and tribulations.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk212b.htm

Further discussion
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32449
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:22 pmThen what is meant by Nirodha?
Try to say on topic. If it is not known what "nama" is then what is the point of asking the above question?
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SarathW
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:28 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:22 pmThen what is meant by Nirodha?
Try to say on topic. If it is not known what "nama" is then what is the point of asking the above question?
I think I am in staying in the topic.
I am trying to understand what Nama means.
If we can find what is meant by nama-rupa Nirodha we can get close to the answer in OP.
:shrug:
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by DooDoot »

thang wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm Some says nama is
1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
Often I start a topic question on this forum and, when I receive answers, I respectfully thank the members who kindly answer my questions. I answered your questions on this topic but you have not replied. Is thanking others against Buddhist practise? :shrug:
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW »

Is thanking others against Buddhist practise? :shrug:
Buddhist do not thank monks but say "Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu"
Actually, I do not know the meaning of this.
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santa100
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Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Yuttadhammo's explanation here
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